Tough on Permatourists

[steveinbsas]

On Wednesday I went to the AFIP office where my business is registered to take care of some tax payments. I asked one of the managers who I know for a few years already if he had ever heard of "Permatourists" (I explained in Spanish what this meant) and he just laughed. He also did a search of their databases for me, for the past 2 years and there is NO information, press releases, edicts or otherwise related to "Permatourists" in their records. This term, and whole issue is being fabricated by people on this site and some other places on the internet to scare people. So don't believe the hype, relax, and don't pay much attention to the dorx that come up with these false issues.

AFIP is investigating foreigners who own apartments or other properties in Argentina, and that is a very real issue...especially for those trying to sell.


The OP was a great April Fool joke...one of the best ever.
Only migraciones has the power to allow and/or deny foreigners entry into Argentina and grant or deny residency.

They also have the power to hassle, detain and and even expel those in violation of immigration laws. They obviously have not been strictly enforcing the laws, but they could do so at any time. If they ever become as strict as Brazil, many expats in Argentina will face serious problems, especially those who live here and own property but do not have resident visas.

I don't think that the expats who have recently shared their negative experiences with Argentine imigraciones (having a 90 extension denied or being detained for a number of hours) are crating false issues. Calling them "dorx" only make the person using the term look like one.

The OP was a great April Fool joke...one of the best ever.

 

[French jurist]

Attn.: French Jurist -

International Law... how about this one -
What is the nationality of a child born on board of this flight...?

(1) The flight is operated commercially by Aerolineas Argentinas
(2) The aircraft is actually an Iberia combined flight IB/AR flight number.
(3) The aircraft is registered in France, under lease to Iberia.
(4) The child was born over high seas (UK rules the sea, Admiralty Law)
(5) The father is a dual national Uruguayan/Italian
(6) The mother is a citizen of Chile
(7) The airplane departed Madrid and be landing Sao Paulo

This is not an April fools joke... it could really happen.

Bonjour cousin d'outre Quiévrain,

That's a very good question, especially on a rainy day like today.
I'll be checking more in-depth but of course, multiple answers or choices would apply I guess (jus sanguinis/solis, UN rules, national rules, aeronautics rules, ...) with possible double/triple/quadruple choice.

By intuition, I would discard point 4 (Admiralty Law) as non-relevant but I'll check on this as well (will never be useful to know the answer I guess, but since the day is so gray, well, better than watching TV).

I'll be back with a few thoughts, he he

PS : If the flight departed Madrid for Sao Paulo, how could it possibly fly over UK national seas (any UK island on the route ? I don't see one, but maybe is there a small rock island somewhere ? Or departing Madrid, does it fly south first in order to follow a bit African coasts in which case it could fly over Gibraltar) ?

 

[mini]

Attn.: French Jurist -

International Law... how about this one -
What is the nationality of a child born on board of this flight...?

(1) The flight is operated commercially by Aerolineas Argentinas
(2) The aircraft is actually an Iberia combined flight IB/AR flight number.
(3) The aircraft is registered in France, under lease to Iberia.
(4) The child was born over high seas (UK rules the sea, Admiralty Law)
(5) The father is a dual national Uruguayan/Italian
(6) The mother is a citizen of Chile
(7) The airplane departed Madrid and be landing Sao Paulo

This is not an April fools joke... it could really happen.

The child would be (or could be if the parents submit the paper work):
Uruguayan, Chilean & Italian.

The child has no rights to Spanish, French nor UK citizenship. Would he be Argentine or Brazilian as well? I doubt it.

 

[French jurist]

Ok, I'll give it a try, considering the main options (there are secundary options like if, for example, the grand parent of one of the father/mother is Spanish, in which case the baby could later claim the spanish nationality. But I'll discard those secundary options, things are already way too much complicated).

Main options are :

1- UK (considering the plane hypothetically flew in the UK airspace) : The baby can't claim the British nationality since the jus solis has been modified since january 1st 1983 (one of the parents should be resident or be living for a certain amount of time there in order to claim the nationality).

2- Argentina : The baby can't claim the Argentinean nationality since (UN rules : Airplane's registration -in this case France- is taken into account. For the leasing subtility, see below).

3- Spain :
. Because the plane departed from Spain ? I don't think this applies, then no.
. Because the plane, registered to France, is leased to Iberia ? I don't know the answer (maybe you do ?) but my guess is that registration takes over the lease operation, then no.

4- France :
Great inheritance from the French Revolution, the Jus Solis.
Since the plane is registered to France, the baby would have the possibility to claim the French nationality when reaching 18 (few other conditions might apply, but globally, yes).

5- Italy.
Jus Sanguinis is strong in Italy, and since one of the parents has the Italian nationality, the baby could have the Italian nationality.

6- Uruguay.
Using the concept of "ciudadania natural", the baby could eventually get the Uruguayan citizenship, but only if the parent who has the Uruguayan nationality was too born on Uruguayan soil ("Natural citizenship" is not given to the child if the parent was not born on Uruguayan soil, even if he has Uruguayan citizenship).

7- Chile.
Now that's complicated (but answered by Art.10 of the Chilean Constitution) :
. If the Chilean mother is working abroad for the Chilean government, without a Chilean residence, then the baby could get the Chilean nationality.
. If the Chilean mother has had her residence in Chile for more than one year, then too, the baby could get the Chilean nationality.
Apart of those two possibilities, I guess that the baby could not have the Chilean citizenship.

8- Brazil
Until april 2007, it seems that Brazil was very strict on giving away the nationality (case of brazilians giving birth to babies in Belgium : babies were not considered Brazilian, even though both parents were Brazilian).
I don't know what the Constitutional changes made in 2007 were, but my guess is that the baby could not get the Brazilian nationality.


***

Conclusion, we would have three major options (and very likely four, with the Chilean one):
France (which permits double nationality), Italy (allows too double nationality) and Uruguay (no clue as to the double nationality aspect).

***

More or less, that would be it I think, but I might well be wrong on certain details !

 

[mini]

4- France :
Great inheritance from the French Revolution, the Jus Solis.
Since the plane is registered to France, the baby would have the possibility to claim the French nationality when reaching 18 (few other conditions might apply, but globally, yes).

No. Because they have to be residents. Tourists or people passing through and give birth can not pass this on to their children.

 

[French jurist]

No. Because they have to be residents. Tourists or people passing through and give birth can not pass this on to their children.

Indeed, the baby would later need to reside in France in order to claim the nationality (that's why I added further conditions would be needed. Should have written "would" instead of "might", my mistake)

 

[mini]

Indeed, the baby would later need to reside in France in order to claim the nationality (that's why I added further conditions would be needed. Should have written "would" instead of "might", my mistake)

The residency requirement is on the part of the parents at teh time of birth of the child, not on the child. The parent's should have been residents of France at the time of the birth. If not, the child has no rights to French nationality.

 

[French jurist]

The residency requirement is on the part of the parents at teh time of birth of the child, not on the child. The parent's should have been residents of France at the time of the birth. If not, the child has no rights to French nationality.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on this point (If I recall you attend french conversation meetings, so I'll post links written in french) :
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/le...es_1395/nationalite-francaise_5301/index.html

The kid will automatically get the french nationality at 18 (he can deny this right) if (cumulative conditions) :
- Was born on french soil, even from foreign parents
- At 18 y/o he has his residence in France
- He had his residence in France for at least 5 years since he was 11 y/o.

Too, he can get the nationality before, at 16, with the same requirements (article 21-11)
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affic...Texte=LEGITEXT000006070721&dateTexte=20080925

Last (same article 21-11) : his parents can ask for him, with his consent, at the age of 13, if he has been residing in France without interruption since he was 8.

 

[mini]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on this point (If I recall you attend french conversation meetings, so I'll post links written in french) :
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/le...es_1395/nationalite-francaise_5301/index.html

The kid will automatically get the french nationality at 18 (he can deny this right) if (cumulative conditions) :
- Was born on french soil, even from foreign parents
- At 18 y/o he has his residence in France
- He had his residence in France for at least 5 years since he was 11 y/o.

Too, he can get the nationality before, at 16, with the same requirements (article 21-11)
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affic...Texte=LEGITEXT000006070721&dateTexte=20080925

Last (same article 21-11) : his parents can ask for him, with his consent, at the age of 13, if he has been residing in France without interruption since he was 8.

The site you link to does not strengthen your point I'm afraid. You are jumping ahead. You assume that the parents had the right to give French nationality to the child which in our little example they did not. The parents of our example child born on the plane were not residents of France and thus do not have the right to transmit French nationality to their child, even if the child were born on French soil. They can transmit Uruguayan, Italian or Chilean nationality on their child, not French. Let's not even get into the fact of whether or not the plane is considered "french territory" by fact of being owned by a French company. We haven't even established this as a fact yet.

It even says in the middle "La simple naissance en France ne vaut attribution de la nationalité française que pour l’enfant né de parents inconnus ou apatrides, ou de parents étrangers qui ne lui transmettent pas leur nationalité." Otherwise you need to be born & RESIDE in France.

 

[Davidglen77]

What does AFIP have to do with this issue?

Only migraciones has the power to allow and/or deny foreigners entry into Argentina and grant or deny residency.

They also have the power to hassle, detain and and even expel those in violation of immigration laws. They obviously have not been strictly enforcing the laws, but they could do so at any time. If they ever become as strict as Brazil, many expats in Argentina will face serious problems, especially those who live here and own property but do not have resident visas.

I on't think that the expats who have recently shared their negative experiences with Argentine imigraciones (having a 90 extension denied or being detained for a number of hours) are crating false issues. Calling them "dorx" only make the person using the term look like one.

Steve, always can count on you to play the devil's advocate. What I referred to here was the original post, where the poster listed a news brief about AFIP and Permatourists. That is why I mentioned AFIP, so how about you re-analyze my post, then re-analyze your response and we can take you out of the "dork" category.

Cheers!