Tough on Permatourists

[French jurist]

The site you link to does not strengthen your point I'm afraid. You are jumping ahead. You assume that the parents had the right to give French nationality to the child which in our little example they did not. The parents of our example child born on the plane were not residents of France and thus do not have the right to transmit French nationality to their child, even if the child were born on French soil. They can transmit Uruguayan, Italian or Chilean nationality on their child, not French. Let's not even get into the fact of whether or not the plane is considered "french territory" by fact of being owned by a French company. We haven't even established this as a fact yet.

It even says in the middle "La simple naissance en France ne vaut attribution de la nationalité française que pour l’enfant né de parents inconnus ou apatrides, ou de parents étrangers qui ne lui transmettent pas leur nationalité." Otherwise you need to be born & RESIDE in France.

Mini, that's exactly where we don't agree. And I maintain 100% my statement (anyway, since we are discussing a very theoratical situation, it's no big deal).

You refer only to Jus Sanguinis from what I understand, while I am adding Jus Solis.
And if we were to discuss only about the Jus Sanguinis, then acquisition of nationality would not be automatic for Chile (condition of residence or condition tied to one of the parents living abroad but working for the Chilean gov.), nor for Uruguay (one of the parents would need to be Uruguayan + born on Uruguayan soil).

The plane would either be French or Spanish territory (very eventually Argentina but I don't think so), but since it is registered to France, even if leased to Spain, it would rather be considered French territory (I am not 100% sure about this point though, if wrong then it is rather Spanish territory than Argentinean).

I agree with your last sentence It even says in the middle "La simple naissance en France ne vaut attribution de la nationalité française que pour l’enfant né de parents inconnus ou apatrides, ou de parents étrangers qui ne lui transmettent pas leur nationalité." Otherwise you need to be born & RESIDE in France. : the baby being born in France (assuming the plane is french territory), if he later resides five years starting from the age of 8 or 11, then he could get the french nationality if the parents ask for it at the age of 13 (with the child consent), or the child could ask for & get it at the age of 16, or the child would automatically get it at the age of 18.

Even the residence condition is quite new in France, a few years ago it was not required, which explains why footballers such as Gonzalo Higuain or David Trezeguet have french passports by the way (too bad Higuain didn't choose to play for the Bleus !).

 

[JoeKelly711]

GOOD ONE! Delayed April fools!!

 

[ghost]

This April Fools "Joke" is now circulating at the AFIP offices and they are preparing a plan to implement same, asap.
Director Federico Cashola was quoted as saying "these expats really provide some good ideas"

 

[mendozanow]

As Wally Gator, my favorite character in the defunct, brilliant comic strip POGO, sadi:

"We have met the enemy . and they are us!"

 

[blackburn]

Hahahaha......but as the old saying goes.....many a true word said in jest......best hope no one from A

FIP isn't checking could find this will be policy soon

 

[sesamosinsal]

8- Brazil
Until april 2007, it seems that Brazil was very strict on giving away the nationality (case of brazilians giving birth to babies in Belgium : babies were not considered Brazilian, even though both parents were Brazilian).
I don't know what the Constitutional changes made in 2007 were, but my guess is that the baby could not get the Brazilian nationality.

There has to be more to that. This would be unconstitutional. Do you have an article on this? I couldn't find one...

Art. 12. São brasileiros:
I - natos:
a) os nascidos na República Federativa do Brasil, ainda que de pais estrangeiros, desde que estes não estejam a serviço de seu país;
b) os nascidos no estrangeiro, de pai brasileiro ou de mãe brasileira, desde que qualquer deles esteja a serviço da República Federativa do Brasil;
c) os nascidos no estrangeiro, de pai brasileiro ou de mãe brasileira, desde que venham a residir na República Federativa do Brasil e optem, em qualquer tempo, pela nacionalidade brasileira;

"Those abroad shall be considered a Brazilian national if (1) born to a Brazilian father or a Brazilian mother and (2) choose to come reside in the Federative Republic of Brazil, and, at any time, request Brazilian nationality.

That particular section (c) of Article 12 has not been amended since 1994.

 

[French jurist]

There has to be more to that. This would be unconstitutional. Do you have an article on this? I couldn't find one...



"Those abroad shall be considered a Brazilian national if (1) born to a Brazilian father or a Brazilian mother and (2) choose to come reside in the Federative Republic of Brazil, and, at any time, request Brazilian nationality.

That particular section (c) of Article 12 has not been amended since 1994.

Hi,

Only links (there are a few) are written in French, for example in La Tribune de Bruxelles :

http://www.tbx.be/fr/Dossier/214/app.rvb
“Le cas des auteurs brésiliens d’enfants belges est particulièrement surréaliste, explique Me Ronsse Nussensveig. Jusqu’en septembre 2007, la Constitution brésilienne n’attribuait pas automatiquement la nationalité brésilienne aux enfants nés de parents brésiliens à l’extérieur du Brésil. Les enfants de parents brésiliens nés en Belgique naissaient donc apatrides et en vertu de l’ancien article 10 du code de la nationalité belge, ils devenaient automatiquement belges avec des parents sans papiers ou en situation irrégulière sur le territoire. Les autorités belges refusent de régulariser les parents de ces enfants belges tout en concédant qu’il est impossible d’expulser ces illégaux au risque de les séparer d’un enfant né belge."

Don't have time to translate now, but if an online translator does not work, I'll do it later today

 

[steveinbsas]

Hi,

Only links (there are a few) are written in French, for example in La Tribune de Bruxelles :

http://www.tbx.be/fr/Dossier/214/app.rvb
“Le cas des auteurs brésiliens d’enfants belges est particulièrement surréaliste, explique Me Ronsse Nussensveig. Jusqu’en septembre 2007, la Constitution brésilienne n’attribuait pas automatiquement la nationalité brésilienne aux enfants nés de parents brésiliens à l’extérieur du Brésil. Les enfants de parents brésiliens nés en Belgique naissaient donc apatrides et en vertu de l’ancien article 10 du code de la nationalité belge, ils devenaient automatiquement belges avec des parents sans papiers ou en situation irrégulière sur le territoire. Les autorités belges refusent de régulariser les parents de ces enfants belges tout en concédant qu’il est impossible d’expulser ces illégaux au risque de les séparer d’un enfant né belge."

Don't have time to translate now, but if an online translator does not work, I'll do it later today

Here's what www.freetranslation.com provided:

"The case of the Brazilian authors of Belgian children is particularly surrealist, explains Me Ronsse Nussensveig. Up to September 2007, the Brazilian Constitution attributed not automatically the Brazilian nationality to the born children of Brazilian parents to the exterior one Brazil. The Brazilian parent children born in Belgium were born therefore stateless and by virtue of the former item 10 of the code of the Belgian nationality, they became automatically Belgian with parents without papers or in irregular position on the territory. Belgian authorities refuse sort out the Belgian parents of these children all in contractor that it is impossible to expel these illegal ones to the risk to separate them of a Belgian born child.

 

[mini]

Sometime, people who are X nationality due to their parents are X nationality but they do not have the right to transmit that nationality on to their children unless they have fulfilled certain criteria, mostly residency. This could be the case of this couple in Belgium.

Anyway, I'm not sure the airplane baby would be considered to be born on Brazilian territory. Did anyone figure out there this baby is considered to be born?

And Igor, maybe you can split this conversation out to it's own thread?

 

[sesamosinsal]

c) os nascidos no estrangeiro de pai brasileiro ou de mãebrasileira, desde que sejam registrados em repartição brasileira competente ou venham a residir na República Federativa do Brasil e optem, em qualquer tempo, depois de atingida a maioridade, pela nacionalidade brasileira;

OK, the Constitution I was looking at was outdated. That above is the the revised Art. 12.

I'm not sure I understand what it even says because evidently Brazilians use a comma in ways that I do not. Literal translation:

c) Those born abroad to a Brazilian father or a Brazilian mother, as soon as they may be registered by an official Brazilian government agency or they come to reside in the Federative Republic Brazil and opt, at any time, after becoming of age, for the Brazilian nationality.

Spanish does this too. Just rambles on and on and on. Periods are wonderful! But I guess it seems that children born abroad to Brazilian parents couldn't qualify for citizenship until they are 18.

Interesting. I wonder if these changes took place because of the David Goldman child custody saga. If this change had been in the books in 2004 when his son Sean traveled to Brazil "for vacation," he would not have been allowed to stay beyond 180 days per year.