Uba: How Free Is Too Free ?

[JoeGillis]

Like most things that "make sense" and "sound fair", it doesn't take into account so many things. Particularly reality. The fact that if the state controls all education, the state controls what is taught (I know, that doesn't bother you - you believe the state should tell you what and how to think). The fact that many people will not actually benefit from education - when tied directly to their future earnings potential I mean - that's what most people go to university for, right? Not to learn Latin and art and literature and learn more about humanity, etc, and get a good liberal education to expand the mind. The fact that there is a real cost for each student that attends school. The fact that unprepared students will indeed suck up resources intended for those who are both capable and have a desire to learn.

If the government here was truly worried about educating its people, they would concentrate on educating its people at an earlier age before worrying about getting them in university. There is hardly any of that here, but people so blinded by populism think that the government already is doing this. But of course, that's not what this government is interested in - they are interested in smoke and mirrors that produce nothing but momentary entertainment for the masses.

As for something as simple as you not even understanding how wasteful it is to have seats occupied by students who will go, take up teaching and space resources and find out that they don't have the willpower to really push themselves (because yeah, they learned that so well in secondary school where the majority copy from everyone else and aren't pushed to do any original work and thinking) - where exactly is the extra money going to come from? Ah yeah - just print more!

You don't have to treat public education as a business, but you do have to be able to think critically enough to be able to see that more students = more resources = more money and Argentina doesn't have the money to do this and have good education.

Look at the state of the economy and education in Argentina and...oh yeah, I forgot. You think Argentina is doing even better than it was ten years ago. No reason at all to continue this discussion. Just keep feeding the monkey and watching the actual education that is done fall lower and lower and lower.

A popular definition of insanity: keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results...

Excellent, ElQueso! My sentiments exactly.

 

[Matiasba]

El Queso, I dont know if I will answer your long post afterwards, but rapidly, I ll take two asserts you did.

One is that this government dont educate people. (!)

Lets consider the fact, the crucial and key fact, that Menem (10 years), Alianza (2 years) and Duhalde (2 years) invested 2% of GDP in education, while these K governments invested 6.5%. A thinker.

And not only that. They multiplied the GDP per two!!!

So, they invested A LOT more in education. Particularly, in superior education (that is, Universities) 1% of GDP (again, of a doubled GDP).



The other thing I differ, of course, is this.

You don't have to treat public education as a business, but you do have to be able to think critically enough to be able to see that more students = more resources = more money and Argentina doesn't have the money to do this and have good education.

In fact, Argentina could invest *that much* in education during the past years (with many, several plans, for example to repatriate scientists who were working abroad) because the economy was doing quite well. The facts show us that getting rid of a great percentage of debt, allowed us to put that money in important things. We used to pay the entire budget of education in one year in interests of debt (thats right, not the debt, but the interests), so we have today very little debt, very little compared to all countries. And you know what we do with that money? social plans, AUH, education, health, credits, etc.

So the facts are on my side, if they werent, all people wouldnt be doing all the things they do. Thats the proof I have. Ladran, Sancho.

ps: which university you know that does not have programmes controlled by the state?

 

[nikad]

El Queso, I dont know if I will answer your long post afterwards, but rapidly, I ll take two asserts you did.

One is that this government dont educate people. (!)

Lets consider the fact, the crucial and key fact, that Menem (10 years), Alianza (2 years) and Duhalde (2 years) invested 2% of GDP in education, while these K governments invested 6.5%. A thinker.

And not only that. They multiplied the GDP per two!!!

So, they invested A LOT more in education. Particularly, in superior education (that is, Universities) 1% of GDP (again, of a doubled GDP).



The other thing I differ, of course, is this.



In fact, Argentina could invest *that much* in education during the past years (with many, several plans, for example to repatriate scientists who were working abroad) because the economy was doing quite well. The facts show us that getting rid of a great percentage of debt, allowed us to put that money in important things. We used to pay the entire budget of education in one year in interests of debt (thats right, not the debt, but the interests), so we have today very little debt, very little compared to all countries. And you know what we do with that money? social plans, AUH, education, health, credits, etc.

So the facts are on my side, if they wasnt, all people wouldnt be doing all the things they do. Thats the proof I have. Ladran, Sancho.

ps: which university you know that does not have programmes controlled by the state?

The fact that the money was " assigned " to Education on the National Budget, doesn't necessarily mean that it was used effectively for that purpose ( see Indec, poverty index, and other fake numbers and statistics from the current administration ).

 

[Ries]

Like most things that "make sense" and "sound fair", it doesn't take into account so many things. Particularly reality. The fact that if the state controls all education, the state controls what is taught (I know, that doesn't bother you - you believe the state should tell you what and how to think). The fact that many people will not actually benefit from education - when tied directly to their future earnings potential I mean - that's what most people go to university for, right? Not to learn Latin and art and literature and learn more about humanity, etc, and get a good liberal education to expand the mind. The fact that there is a real cost for each student that attends school. The fact that unprepared students will indeed suck up resources intended for those who are both capable and have a desire to learn.

If the government here was truly worried about educating its people, they would concentrate on educating its people at an earlier age before worrying about getting them in university. There is hardly any of that here, but people so blinded by populism think that the government already is doing this. But of course, that's not what this government is interested in - they are interested in smoke and mirrors that produce nothing but momentary entertainment for the masses.

As for something as simple as you not even understanding how wasteful it is to have seats occupied by students who will go, take up teaching and space resources and find out that they don't have the willpower to really push themselves (because yeah, they learned that so well in secondary school where the majority copy from everyone else and aren't pushed to do any original work and thinking) - where exactly is the extra money going to come from? Ah yeah - just print more!

You don't have to treat public education as a business, but you do have to be able to think critically enough to be able to see that more students = more resources = more money and Argentina doesn't have the money to do this and have good education.

Look at the state of the economy and education in Argentina and...oh yeah, I forgot. You think Argentina is doing even better than it was ten years ago. No reason at all to continue this discussion. Just keep feeding the monkey and watching the actual education that is done fall lower and lower and lower.

A popular definition of insanity: keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results...

Worldwide, history has shown you are wrong- people, and society, DO benefit from education.

But, nobody said anything about "the state" controlling all education, or what is taught.
There are tons of private options, for anybody who doesnt agree with "the state".
And, in Argentina, just like everywhere else, professors do not teach what "the state" tells them to.
If you think that, you havent met many professors. I know dozens and dozens, in the USA, Europe, Asia, and, yes, a good half dozen or so who teach in Buenos Aires, mostly at UBA. All of them are independent in what they teach and how the do it, to a much bigger degree than you seem to think.

The other thing you are seemingly unaware of is the existence of education beyond a "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]a good liberal education to expand the mind". [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]In Argentina, just like in many other countries, the university and college system teaches an incredible array of practical things, which lead directly to jobs.
The main focus of the new "K" campuses out in the periphery of BsAs are things like computer science, manufacturing technology, and similar non-liberal arts subjects.
There are programs in welding, and machining, nursing, accounting, auto mechanics, engineering, and a wide variety of other things.
I know, personally, a lot of people with architecture degrees from UBA who work as architects. Some were poor. I know a whole passel of clothing, shoe, and jewelry designers who are working in CABA, who went to UBA.
The system in Argentina doesnt just train poets and revolutionaries. (which are two spectacularly low paid professions- hence the small size of those departments, compared to computers).[/background]

 

[thorsten]

The fact that the money was " assigned " to Education on the National Budget, doesn't necessarily mean that it was used effectively for that purpose ( see Indec, poverty index, and other fake numbers and statistics from the current administration ).

And if it actually was spent, are we actually seeing a strong increase in terms of education here? If you look at the PISA results, it seems that you can't just throw money at every problem and expect it to go away... But hey, the "facts" are on Mathias' side

 

[Matiasba]

The fact that the money was " assigned " to Education on the National Budget, doesn't necessarily mean that it was used effectively for that purpose ( see Indec, poverty index, and other fake numbers and statistics from the current administration ).

Nikad, I know lots of people linked to superior education, not only with UBA, but with other universities from Conurbano (Quilmes, San Martin, General Sarmiento). They all talked me about the great changes in those uniersities. Also, in 2013 a professor of mine told me that in the university they taught, -cant remember which one but I think it was General Sarmiento in San Miguel- they got millions and millions of dollars of budget, so they had a great problem -dont know what to do with the money. In fact, that money came, entirely,100% from Megaminería. She told me that there was a law, or a decree or something that said the entire money from megamineria went to superior education.

And with primary and secondary education, we have a very stable scenario, compared to what this used to be.

 

[Matiasba]

Worldwide, history has shown you are wrong- people, and society, DO benefit from education.

But, nobody said anything about "the state" controlling all education, or what is taught.
There are tons of private options, for anybody who doesnt agree with "the state".
And, in Argentina, just like everywhere else, professors do not teach what "the state" tells them to.
If you think that, you havent met many professors. I know dozens and dozens, in the USA, Europe, Asia, and, yes, a good half dozen or so who teach in Buenos Aires, mostly at UBA. All of them are independent in what they teach and how the do it, to a much bigger degree than you seem to think.

Im sorry to differ, but education programmes are all controlled by the state. Not only the public schools and universities, but also the private. Teachers should teach whats in the programme. Yes, they have autonomy in reality, and they do what they want, but formally, they should stick to the programme.

 

[Ries]

Im sorry to differ, but education programmes are all controlled by the state. Not only the public schools and universities, but also the private. Teachers should teach whats in the programme. Yes, they have autonomy in reality, and they do what they want, but formally, they should stick to the programme.

This has never happened, except maybe under Stalin in the Soviet Union.
I sure wouldnt want it.
Luckily, especially in places like UBA, it never happens.
Oh, sure, a teacher will teach math, or tensile strengths of materials, or criminal law- but HOW its done will be different with every different teacher.
I know several professors at UBA, for example, who have very different philosophical approaches to the same subject, and sometimes teach the "same" class- and it comes out completely different every time.
And I think thats a really good thing.
If "the state" actually believes it is "controlling" what is being taught in every single class, they are living in a dream world.

 

[Matiasba]

This has never happened, except maybe under Stalin in the Soviet Union.
I sure wouldnt want it.
Luckily, especially in places like UBA, it never happens.
Oh, sure, a teacher will teach math, or tensile strengths of materials, or criminal law- but HOW its done will be different with every different teacher.
I know several professors at UBA, for example, who have very different philosophical approaches to the same subject, and sometimes teach the "same" class- and it comes out completely different every time.
And I think thats a really good thing.
If "the state" actually believes it is "controlling" what is being taught in every single class, they are living in a dream world.

Actually,its not like,teachers do what its in the programme, but the programme is what they teach. I explain myself: never ever a teacher gives a class from nowhere. It actually has a guide, a line to follow. If not, theres pure anarchy,and can not have a class like that. For example,I studied "Teoria Estética y Politica" given by well known and prestigious philosopher intellectual Horacio Gonzalez. He came every class with Clarin (it was in 2007 when the war with the government didn t exist) so he started the class by choosing an article and explain it from a philosophic point of view. It was 100% improvisation, but it did have an unifying thread, it did have sense with what other stuff other proffesor later would teach.

If you ask me, I d say he didnt prepare the class, although was all in his mind.

When a proffesor gives a class it has to do with the subject he or she is teaching, with the bibliography they gave, etc, and that is supervised by direccion de la carrera and that by rectoría.

 

[ElQueso]

Worldwide, history has shown you are wrong- people, and society, DO benefit from education.

Ries, you seem to have a reading deficiency or you didn't read what I wrote. Where did I say people don't benefit from education? I brought three poor young ladies from Paraguay to here because I wanted them to have an education, so that they could support themselves, so that they didn't have to depend on a machista asshole for their lives, so that they could have the knowledge to advance their own lives without depending on anyone else (in the future, of course, because for now they depend on me).

I'm the last person who would ever say that education isn't important. But I don't let myself get emotional and think there is a possibility to "save everyone" with the screwed up mess that is Argentina both related to education and economy.

I have to work harder than any other parent I know to get these girls on the right track to independence. I spend hours and hours every week going over their classwork, teaching them English and Math and Physics because where they came from they were very deficient. I've spent money on tutors that can't teach worth a damn. I work with the girls to teach them how to study, how to form thoughts and complete sentences.

Our first to leave secondary education is in her second year at one of the best schools in Argentina, in one of the hardest subjects, and she's scoring 8s, 9s and 10s while most of her classmates that she knows are dropping out because they can't hack it. Of course, these are the Argentinos who attend that she knows. The Colombians, the Americans, the Canadians that she knows are working their asses off as well.

Don't tell me I don't believe that education can help people. I just don't make emotional comments like "everyone deserves to be educated for free" with no ability to accomplish anything of the sort.

But, nobody said anything about "the state" controlling all education, or what is taught.
There are tons of private options, for anybody who doesnt agree with "the state".
And, in Argentina, just like everywhere else, professors do not teach what "the state" tells them to.
If you think that, you havent met many professors. I know dozens and dozens, in the USA, Europe, Asia, and, yes, a good half dozen or so who teach in Buenos Aires, mostly at UBA. All of them are independent in what they teach and how the do it, to a much bigger degree than you seem to think.

My comment about the state controlling everything was what happens when you allow populism to take over everything. At its most extreme end, there are no private schools. I certainly didn't say that's how things are now, but that's what populism leads to - either no private schools for the "elite", or controls on those private schools.

Our young lady's professors and the guest business speakers they have that come talk to them laugh at the secondary schools here and at least the public business schools. As they themselves say - they don't teach reality where it counts.

We have two girls in secondary education. I have to fight a daily battle to explain why they have to actually do the work the teacher assigns. Why they are doing better by not copying off their neighbor's tests. Why I don't allow them to just copy and paste from the internet when they are required to do a report on a topic. Why the crap they feed the students here about the difference between "elites" and "the people" is a dangerous load of garbage. Why what they teach about Peron and Eva and the Falklands is only a piece of the story.

Absent a state that gives a damn about education, letting things go without any real oversight leads to education such as is found here.

Yes, I am aware that there are plenty of private schools and even the secondary schools are bad enough - the kids I know (via their parents usually) who go to public schools - I'm horrified.

Besides, perhaps the one thing I agree with Matias on is what he said about what the professors here teach, at least in secondary education. Everyone of our girls have had specific sections in history (in a private catholic school, mind you) on Peronism and the "fact" that the Falklands belong to Argentina. In law, in 5th year, our oldest had to learn the laws of the country, with very little taught about the concept of law and how it's derived, but rather what specific contracts say here in this country and what it means to be a good citizen by following those contracts that were laid out "for the good of all" (it's one of the reasons I knew so much about contracts and other things here! I helped her figure out a lot of it)

The other thing you are seemingly unaware of is the existence of education beyond a "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]a good liberal education to expand the mind". [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]In Argentina, just like in many other countries, the university and college system teaches an incredible array of practical things, which lead directly to jobs.
The main focus of the new "K" campuses out in the periphery of BsAs are things like computer science, manufacturing technology, and similar non-liberal arts subjects.
There are programs in welding, and machining, nursing, accounting, auto mechanics, engineering, and a wide variety of other things.
I know, personally, a lot of people with architecture degrees from UBA who work as architects. Some were poor. I know a whole passel of clothing, shoe, and jewelry designers who are working in CABA, who went to UBA.
The system in Argentina doesnt just train poets and revolutionaries. (which are two spectacularly low paid professions- hence the small size of those departments, compared to computers).[/background]

Again, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

One thing I like about universities here is that they teach to a career usually, and there is almost no extraneous material. I spent the first two years of my university experience in the States taking a lot of stuff that was liberal arts, political sciences, etc, that had nothing to do with my chosen career. Although I loved Latin, having studied it for two years in high school and another two years in college, it sure as hell wasn't necessary for my career

The comment I made I intended just as written, with no irony. People don't go to school here to get a liberal arts education - they go to get trained for a job. But if the State controls the schools, they will be taught exactly what the State wants them to learn. There will be no free market studies, for example, but rather how to make this bizarre concept of Peronism work, with material that can't make sense because it can't work. And the level to which the students will be trained will be lesser than what private schools can teach because they will be teaching more dogma related to their ideals than practices that are based in reality.

And that brings us down to what I was saying anyway. How can you just open the floodgates to anyone who wants to study, if those people are not prepared, and expect to maintain or better education in the country, and when you already have a problem spending the money you need for education and it's obviously woefully inadequate (no matter what lied-about and misunderstood numbers Counting Matias throws around)?

And it is a fact that it is much easier to train a younger kid before he or she gets out of the primary and secondary educational systems than it is to try to retrain someone who should already have those basic skills. Instead of throwing all the unprepared students into classes with professors and students who are ready to learn, why not prepare them first if you're going to spend extra money? Why get rid of entrance exams and tell me please how that actually makes people equal! They are certainly not equal in preparation nor are they likely to be equal in result.

You didn't even comment about where I mentioned instead of just killing the entrance exams and depending on a de facto re-training of a majority of students and costing a lot of time, money and effort right there in classes where there are others who are there to learn and came prepared - why not spend the money on an extra program to get those ill-prepared students to a better level of education so that they can benefit from it and pass the entrance exams? If you want to pay for public education at least do it right!