Uba: How Free Is Too Free ?

[Matiasba]

I dont think the results are something that can change easily, its more a matter of poverty, of culture, and argentine families have been impoverished so much during the past 40 years of neoliberalismo, there has been so many economical problems, that people that used to attend to college, used to study at home, used to go to school, have a job, etc, all that society entered in crisis, especailly during menemismo.

The key variable here is employment. When you not have that, everything else falls apart, and that includes of course education.

Yes the results are bad, but I would say that those results have more to do with something cultural, than something of the last past years. In fact, I (want to) believe it got better, but I cant measure that. If the results were fine, I would be saying the same things, I dont believe in these indicators.



But with superior education thats another thing.

 

[thorsten]

Yes the results are bad, but I would say that those results have more to do with something cultural, than something of the last past years. In fact, I (want to) believe it got better, but I cant measure that. If the results were fine, I would be saying the same things, I dont believe in these indicators.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Willful_ignorance

 

[Matiasba]

http://rationalwiki....llful_ignorance

Yeah, the PISA test is the pure and consecrated truth, the only truth, oh, save our only indicator that invalidates all other possible analysis!

 

[thorsten]

To quote the reference source: "The practice can entail completely disregarding established facts, evidence and/or reasonable opinions if they fail to meet one’s expectations. Often excuses will be made, stating that the source is unreliable, that the experiment was flawed or the opinion is too biased." - but hey, keep your believes as they have been shown so accurate in the past...

 

[ElQueso]

"...hook, line and sinker..."

 

[Dada]

We are talking about public education, not private Where are you currently studying?

NikaD, I'm studying at http://www.casadeletras.com.ar/. So far, while very much enjoying the teaching, I have no idea how exactly it functions bureaucratically. It seems to be a hybrid between a public funded institution and a private initiative. Probably a fruit of patriotic efforts of a group of enthusiasts who somehow managed to get access to some sort of public funding and made all this possible. The school awards no degrees or similar, has no entry or exit exams, just teaches and that's it. If you fail to do your part of the work, your problem. What we pay is purely symbolic, I doubt the sum of all our collected fees covers the salary of one of the receptionists (there's one downstairs and one upstairs, plus of course the professors who are all famous and sorted, if not rich). We are all adults, aspiring writers, we choose to go there and gladly pay what we know only covers a fraction of the total costs. 80% of my classmates are abogados.

Of course, it's different with elementary schools. Kids only go there because they are forced to, they have no choice. Yet I wouldn't underestimate the quality of what certain teachers deliver, regardless of economy or politics. There's much to improve (like everywhere, always), but please don't insult these people by reducing their hard work to a simple outcome of a politic game. Many of them spill their whole heart into it, for nothing, and will continue to do so regardless of the outcome of the elections.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

The government is responsible for the poor getting crap education in high school in the first place ( talking about public school system here that was once excellent ). How about they do it right?

The same in the US but there is admition test.

Plus, you are wrong. The provinces are responsible of education so, the level vary.

The schools that belong to the Federal State have a great level of education. The CBC helps students to acchieve the level of the national schools like Pellegrini or Nac. Buenos Aires.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Exactly my feelings Nikad. You don't fix a problem by legislating away legal blocks to further study, you make the system better so that those who go through the system come out better.

I wouldn't have expected any different answer from Bajo than the one he gave. Baho, as a lover of the current regime, doesn't even realize that he is now one of "the elite". He believes the propaganda without even thinking about it.
[...]
Por dios.

You are a missinformed.
The system we have is a product of the university reform of 1918.
Until then, we used to have an educational system alike the one they have in the US. The students made a strike in Cordoba and they abolished the elite system with admission test among other reforms:
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforma_Universitaria_de_1918

So, please, don't be so ignorant.

The law you critizes just protects the reform of 1918.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

It would be way easier not to mix up the two separate issues:
1. Providing free education at universities
2. Allowing universities to select students using skill-based entry tests

If one considers that every capable person who wants to study should be able to independent of his social background, free education is a good way to go - and it works in a lot of countries.
Not allowing universities to perform entry tests is stupid in my opinion. If everyone has a similar set of skills from basic education, this doesn't discriminate anyone based on their social background, but only selects people with the better skill set. The fact Ries mentioned ("I know that in some of the programs my friends teach in, they start out with 700 kids, and 4 or 5 years later, 50 finish the program.") is basically showing how inefficient a system without proper selection is: if less than 10% finish their studies, it basically means that 90% of students just wasted a few semester and thus education funds were wasted. If there is an issue that the pre-university education is so bad that it people lack the basic skills required for university, then it should be fixed there as nikad said. In my opinion, the term "equality" in this context should be interpreted as 2 similarly smart persons should have similar chances to get their degree, no matter if they are coming from a poor or a rich family. But it doesn't mean that a person who can't [background=rgb(255, 253, 248)]add two numbers should have a right that the university accepts him as a math student...[/background]

The system is not inneficient because success is based on personal effort, skills and perseverance.
I studied at UB universty before UBA, everybody was approved as soon as they pay the tuition. Is this efficient? No. The level was super low just like high school.
On the other hand, 90% of teachers works for free at UBA so, what's the waste? Electricity? Come on!
I teached 9 years for free at UBA so i know what I mean. Only the master of the cathedra had a salary (almost nothing) and his almost 50 followers worked for free.

 

[thorsten]

On the other hand, 90% of teachers works for free at UBA so, what's the waste? Electricity? Come on!

So where does the education budget go? How comes that a country spending a lot on education (which is principally a good thing) and a lot of teachers work for free cannot produce any results in terms of improved quality? Are the electricity costs so high? Come on!