Updated COVID restrictions on circulation

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Iznogud

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Israel is a militarized society (unfortunately) used to live at war. They understand why rules are to be followed. You probably couldn't find a less alien example to follow.

If your point is that it is feasable, then it's not valid. Argentinian society was a total mess decades before this started.
At least 4 generations of people that don't know what working for a living means and counting on govmt. handouts, blackmail and all types of violence to manage until tomorrow and the next day.

The sense of a family has been lost, the usefulness of education has been lost, the ambition of growth, self improvement and making a better world for the next generation is gone.

We're closer to the «No Future» than the punk movement ever was.

It's up to us, individuals, to start making a difference.

Fully understand that while K politicians always have a thousand words to say about everything and anything, fact is they practice in a very dangerous way, the opposite of what they preach.

Iz
 

antipodean

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If your point is that it is feasable, then it's not valid. Argentinian society was a total mess decades before this started.
It is more to the point that with enough people vaccinated, any country is able to get back to "normal" because infection slows. Whether the country will be more or less of a cagada afterwards is besides the point.

Otherwise if science fails and we can't trust individuals or governments to get it right themselves, then we might as well give up, get a head start and move to the desert to live a mad-max style new life.
 

semigoodlookin

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I think the people who still haven't accepted the fact that we will have to learn to live with the virus are extremely delusional. There is no end in sight - taking into account slow vaccine rollout + mutations. Argentina is land locked with very relaxed land borders - it is not Australia who can literally control everything and everyone who comes in. So my question for all the 'lockdown Larrys' who are for more lockdowns and school/business closures is how long do they believe is acceptable? It's already been 1 year, add this year since there is no chance of it going away = 2 years minimum. By that time you will have 70% poverty, kids that can't put their shoes on and a generation of children who are scared of their own shadow and mentally scarred. Sounds great - as long as the rich kids can wake up at 11am and play in their swimming pool all day lol...
I agree with the sentiment, I think a more proactivie approach is needed and finding ways to better handle the virus out in the open. Schools I prefer to stay open, but obviously there is a debate to be had about it. By the way, one of the teachers I mentioned in another post died this morning, looks like the other may follow soon. Most businesses I think there needs to be more done to find ways to keep them open.

However, you say people have to deal with the fact we have to learn to live with the virus. Aren't we doing just that? Lockdowns and restrictions are living with the virus, just not in the way you or I want. No-one is ignoring the virus.
 

Somewhereinba

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I agree with the sentiment, I think a more proactivie approach is needed and finding ways to better handle the virus out in the open. Schools I prefer to stay open, but obviously there is a debate to be had about it. By the way, one of the teachers I mentioned in another post died this morning, looks like the other may follow soon. Most businesses I think there needs to be more done to find ways to keep them open.

However, you say people have to deal with the fact we have to learn to live with the virus. Aren't we doing just that? Lockdowns and restrictions are living with the virus, just not in the way you or I want. No-one is ignoring the virus.
By live with the virus I mean not being so afraid of it that society no longer functions and poverty runs rampant. Long term lockdowns like we saw in Argentina last year created a huge spike in poverty. School closures for the whole year have also had a huge effect on many of the least privileged children who's only avenue to be a child and learn was at school. At home 24/7 they are faced with less than suitable living conditions that only got worse. Regarding the teachers who died - were they vaccinated? It might be different in BA but where I am all teachers have had at least one shot of sputnik. I should also add that although it's unfortunate the reality is that it's not just teachers that are dying - thousands of old people are dying every day that aren't teachers as well. So I think it's not fair to try to paint teaching as a higher risk activity when thousands of others are dying living their 'normal' life whatever that may be. I should also add that we should be more tolerant to risk in schools because of how important they are for our childrens future. The same way hospitals/supermarkets etc are considered 'essential' for society to function. Having a proper education (that IMO is the most important at the younger ages when children develop the most) is one of the most well known methods to ATTEMPT to stop the poverty cycle for the least well off.
 

semigoodlookin

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I think many people without kids in this current situation don't realize the impact the last year has had on young people, especially teenagers. My daughter and many of her friends have been mentally devastated by the crippling of social interaction and freedom, two things people at that age rely on. I am not just talking about feeling down, but proper mental health situations that require medication or intense therapy. I can name at least 12 people from my daughter's class at the top of my head who are now in full-time therapy (some seeing a psychiatrist) following the last year. This is no unique class either because across family and friends, I get reports of the same thing happening in classes of different age groups.

Furthermore, teachers seem oblivious to the personal problems teens are having, either because they don't have access, they don't care, or because teens these days trust their teachers about as far as they can throw them. Of course, there is also an argument that the teachers do see it but just don't do anything about it. I have found the mental health programs in schools in Argentina to be terrible. I am a card carrying critic of teenagers, can't stand them, but the last year has torn away many of the things that are fundemental for growth and mental wellbeing. This is far more than being a generation of cry babies (which believe me, they very much are), but a real social crisis that we are generally ignoring.

Still, if teachers are dropping like flies there needs to be a proper debate about how school continues. The question is, are they dropping like flies? Is there any data that shows teachers are more at risk than say, a supermarket checkout worker or a bus driver?
 

antipodean

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The question is, are they dropping like flies? Is there any data that shows teachers are more at risk than say, a supermarket checkout worker or a bus driver?
According to the government it is currently 0.17% of the educational community in Argentina infected by COVID. Given teachers are one of the few professions to be afforded regular and free testing provided by the authorities with dedicated testing centres, there should be no excuse for them not getting tested or having a reasonably accurate statistic to work with and monitor.

The numbers of affected transport workers, health workers, bank workers and supermarket workers are obviously going to be much higher since they have been "back at work" for far longer so naturally this figure will change (Can't begin to cite the various examples of Argentine companies ravaged by COVID fatalities since the start of this pandemic like one major bank which comes to mind)

In the meantime is it really worth focusing on suspending education now on the pretext that it will, like everything, eventually change? Or better take action only when the numbers are actually reaching a disproportionate level?
Short of a total lockdown of society the fairest thing to do is juggle and take some comfort in knowing front-liners like them will likely get a vaccine before most of us (Like the 90% of health care workers who have so far been vaccinated, according to the government) Again, luckier than most of the other front-line groups who had to work through the whole pandemic pre-vaccine.
 

antipodean

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More news / rumour on the DNU to be published soon:
  • Circulation between 23:00-05:00 expected to be restricted nationwide
  • All organised graduate trips will be suspended (following yet more cases of 78+ teens coming back from Bariloche infected on a flight)
  • Indoor restaurant capacity to be reduced by 30%
  • Cinemas, theatres and cultural spaces under discussion
  • Controls of trains is back (need to show CuidAR app permission and reservations required during peak times to limit capacity on trains following frequent overcrowding)

 

FrankPintor

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Thanks to semigoodlookin for his balanced posts, something that's lacking in this thread, and especially for his unvarnished reporting about what's happening at his childrens' school. I suspect there are few of us with "skin in the game"

It's time to put a bunch of discredited and refuted ideas expressed again here in the thread to bed:

MythTruth
Children don't contract COVIDChildren may not have severe symptoms, but they do contract COVID, sometimes with long term consequences
Children don't transmit COVIDBS refuted by medical evidence, as well as personal experience
Schools account for 0.15% of COVID casesThere are no mechanisms in Argentina that would permit quantifying this, it's simply some "quedáte tranquilo" Argentinian BS
Asymptomatic COVID carriers don't propagate the virusThis is cretinously stupid BS, I understand it was repeated again on TV today
COVID only kills people who were going to die anyway, This is for the proponent of an "Early Retirement Program". It seems that, e.g. in the UK, only 5-15% of those who died of COVID would have died anyway in the next 12 months

Given the current situation, where the national ministry of health spouts unverifiable figures, and the CABA government refuses to implement a lockdown, because politics, as well as slow-walking the vaccination program, everyone needs to look out for themselves. I'll add an anecdote, the CEMIC hospital close to where I live does PCR tests, since the weekend the queue has extended for 1.5 blocks along Av. Las Heras, or about 200 people. It hasn't been like that all summer, but it was like that at 8am today.

It is in no way paranoid to take scientific advice, use masks and wash hands, minimize contact with other people, and particularly avoid being in enclosed spaces with other people. And yes, this will "flatten the curve": Argentina has made a claim that nobody died of COVID for lack of oxygen or an ICU bed. If so, this is an achievement that almost no other country in the region can claim. That's what "flattening the curve" means, perhaps the user who intended to mock this idea will take note and not display his ignorance quite so publicly in the future?
 

antipodean

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It is in no way paranoid to take scientific advice, use masks and wash hands, minimize contact with other people, and particularly avoid being in enclosed spaces with other people. And yes, this will "flatten the curve": Argentina has made a claim that nobody died of COVID for lack of oxygen or an ICU bed. If so, this is an achievement that almost no other country in the region can claim. That's what "flattening the curve" means, perhaps the user who intended to mock this idea will take note and not display his ignorance quite so publicly in the future?
Could not agree more especially when we are seeing infection rates far higher than we have seen before.
Keep in mind it usually takes about 2 weeks for serious cases to turn critical and be admitted to ICU - so likely what we are seeing now is the calm before the storm. Likewise as we see in Brazil recently the average age of ICU patients is lower than the first round so we can't be sure just having vaccinated most old people is certain to avoid more serious issues this time round.


Escobar public hospital ICU's already at 100% and patients need to be transferred to other locations.


Major "well equipped" public hospitals like Hospital Fernandez report despite having more ICU beds and respirators today there is still lack of medicines, burnt out staff, shortage of staff, deaths of staff, suicide attempts amongst staff, lack of functioning equipment etc. Just because there are beds and machines at the moment does not mean there will be quality care or good survival rates.

Hopefully people will think of these workers before engaging in unnecessary high risk activities or flouting basic precautions thinking "tranqui, nothing will happen to me" - the problem is that you may not be the one who becomes their problem.
 

FrankPintor

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According to the government it is currently 0.17% of the educational community in Argentina infected by COVID. Given teachers are one of the few professions to be afforded regular and free testing provided by the authorities with dedicated testing centres, there should be no excuse for them not getting tested or having a reasonably accurate statistic to work with and monitor.
Yes, the plan was to test teachers every two weeks. I'll just mention this, it's an anecdote of course, and may not reflect anyone else's experience: when one of the teachers at my girlfriend's kindergarden tested positive last Wednesday, all of her colleagues were sent to get tested on Saturday. They were all tested, all but one negative fortunately, but interestingly enough the nurse at La Rural doing my girlfriend's test said something like "how did you get an appointment for a test? we're not giving out appointments for teachers anymore". Again anecdotally, I've heard that some test centres are running out of test material.
 
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