Villa Soldati - Are you watching?

[pauper]

but I also think I'm more depressed to see how little interest has been paid to this thread by the board

My feelings precisely, this post had one reply from someone I think is a born and bred Argentine and then disappeared, astonishing. I know there are many here short term and probably see no need to feign concern or interest as its not their country nor will it ever be but I thought at least a few people would have posted about this, now after three nights of violence.

I hope at least some expats have put the tv on to see what a park in the south west of Buenos Aires looks like (this is under the same administration as your lovely bosques) - I have walked past Indoamericano numerous times, but never through it out of fear as it is nothing but an abandoned garbage dump, its little wonder that so many poor families were deceived so easily into believing that it was going to become a housing project, it wouldn't have occurred to many that that disaster was meant to be a park. If they are going to take those families out I hope at least they have the dignity to actually turn it into a usable public space again.

 

[MizzMarr]

True that the park being taken over is hardly a true "green space" (to my knowledge, I've only been there once) but I think that government allowing people to take over such spaces would set a dangerous precedent. I already feel like there is too much flexibility with the squatters laws here (three years to evict someone from a private property, you've got to be kidding me). Aside from that, it's a very interesting and scary thing to think about culturally and watch unfold. Prior to seeing this thread I was unaware of the developments (had been out of town over the weekend, and back to work on return) but am interested to learn more about what's happening. It's a very tricky situation and should be resolved cautiously. I hope that an equitable solution can be reached (I'm not sure what the "right" solution is), but strongly believe that the "park" should not just be allowed to be taken over.

 

[pauper]

Interesting? We are bordering on a race war, the fourth death has just been registered, a vigilante mob of neighbours and/or thugs representing neighbours entered the park and evicted numerous people under a hail of rocks and numerous gunshots, then proceeded to burn their tents and possessions, television crews were thrown out of the park by people screaming death threats and two metropolitana squad cars fled the scene, now there are no police of any sort present, numerous barrasbravas have been identified, this isn't something that I want to watch develop anymore.

This has nothing to do with squatting laws and everything to do with a political decision taken after two piqueteros were murdered by the policia federal on puente Pueyrredón in 2002 to keep the PF on a leash during manifestations and piquets. Under certain circumstances and over a certain period of time I believe it was a smart decision but this is 2010 and the residents of Soldati/Lugano are now living under no law but the law of the jungle. This philosophy that we can't allow the police to intervene in mob actions under any circumstances in case someone is killed has been exposed as infantile and naive over the last three nights. This could go on for weeks if the government wants to play Gandhi and let it burn.

 

[sesamosinsal]

I was watching the coverage last night on C5N.

I think the scariest thing is the nationalist fervor behind this whole issue. Last night on C5N, they could barely talk to a single person who wasn't draped in an Argentine flag and blaming the entire event on the Bolivians. Nationalism is the real problem.

When is humanity going to realize that basing someone's value on her/his nationality is just as wrong as basing her/his value on ethnicity, race, gender, or sexual orientation?

And I just loved the hypocrisy of the people who were blocking Riccheri highway last night. One guy was saying that the national government was "holding them hostage," which made the blocking of the highway necessary. Well, what about all of the motorists on the highway? Are they not being made hostages as well? It's so illogical to criticize the national government for doing something that they are doing as well.

 

[jaredwb]

Anyone that has followed or read any of my posts will know what I'm about to say...still, it's worth being said.

IF the government caves into these street rats, then this country is lost. I don't care what your circumstances are, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO JUST TAKE LAND!!!!!! It doesn't matter if it is private or public.

Granted, the government has handled the situation dreadfully and I blame the National Gov more. When the Jefe de Cabinete comes out and threatens the city gov that any force used against the rats will not be tolerated, what should Macri do? Does ANYONE think these squatters are just going to walk away peacefully???

The entire situation is a stark reminder that Argentina has some serious, serious issues both politically and socially.

 

[K_Crimini]

I live here and it's kind of chaotic. We are in Barrio Nágera on the border of all the madness. The highway was shut off by residents of the area angry over the park. People were running through the streets. I'm uploading photos to Flickr right now.

But it kind of seems like people from the area (those that pay rent) may have been the ones that shot the people in the park today and for that there is no excuse. The violence is appalling.

Whoever says the park is "hardly a green space" has got his head up his ass. Why don't you come over here instead of watching Cronica? Is is a green space and there are villas on three sides of these apartment complexes (Nágera, Samore). As much as I have sympathy for the people in the park, I can understand the view of the residents that are protesting peacefully. It's not safe to walk around here at night alone. People are robbed waiting for the bus to go to work and held at knife and gunpoint as they enter their apartments, forced upstairs and robbed.

So I can see why people are fed up with this situation and this taking over of the park is the last straw in this working class neighborhood where people work hard for what they've got and have watched the neighborhood disintegrate over the last few decades.

This is a very bad situation and all this navel gazing on the part of all you guys living in Recolata and Palermo makes me want to puke. "

BradleyHale? You have no idea what you are talking about. Having to wait two hours in traffic is something people do in LA every day and can hardly be equated with being afraid to leave your house because there are people shooting outside. People are afraid for their families, lives and homes on both sides. The violence is scaring people on both sides, and those who own property here are not rich enough to move and who the hell is going to buy their apartments if they wanted to? No one. This is a working class area where even those with means do not have a lot in the way of choices and many feel trapped here. Not trapped in traffic, trapped, with no options besides watch the neighborhood fall apart all around them. The people in the Villa have even fewer choices - and you seem to be making a lot of judgements about people you obviously feel superior to, so you might want to check yourself before you wreck yourself with your proclamations of "equality" when you seem so obviously to be high and mighty from your perch in - where is it? Alto Palermo? Get a clue.

 

[mini]

I have to say, I'm quite shocked over the whole thing as well on many levels.

I wasn't going to post here mostly because I really don't know enough about the deeper issues related to this to comment. Well, or to form an intelligent opinion of the issue. I do thank everyone who has posted here and who have given insight into the larger issue related to this.

I'm not really surprise about the silence on this site. But I am shocked about the silence in the streets. No one I have talked to since this started has even mentioned the issue. No one.

I'm shocked that this is being allowed to degenerate to this level and that CFK hasn't (as far as I've seen) said anything about the issue. Where is she? Is this a political issue? A CFK vs Macri thing? I see pauper mentioned an incident in 2002 that could answer this question. I'll have to read about it.

Beyond the fact that people are taking over this park, I'm shocked that people are having to PAY for the lots being parceled.

The racist/nationalist thing is also disturbing. But sadly also not surprising.

PS, and I should have finished reading the last post before I commented. It's exactly posts like that the kept me from posting. Crimini, i appreciate your point of view there is no need to be rude. Cant' you make your points (which I found interesting and insightful until they got insulting) without being so rude? The people who have posted on this thread (except for me) don't live in Recoleta and Palermo.

 

[K_Crimini]

I'm sorry, but there were others calling people street rats and I got carried away. I do understand the nationalistic feeling - I don't agree with the violence or hatred and I think the government is falling asleep at the wheel. CFK gets on the air and gives a speech about how beautiful everyone is and then what?

Here are the photos from tonight: http://www.flickr.com/photos/katesedgwick/sets/72157625573208994/

Edit: Looking over my comment, I don't think I was that rude. That was total false equivalency I was reacting to among other things. I think very often that privileged people fail to realize how rash they are in their judgements of others and more sympathy is warranted. I wonder what any of the people posting on here would do if they felt their homes and lives were possibly in danger. So while you may disagree with my tone and perhaps the way I chose to end my comment, I stand by my assertions, and I think anyone posting on here is miles ahead in terms of advantages than 99% of the people in this neighborhood and should recognize that fact.

 

[sesamosinsal]

BradleyHale? You have no idea what you are talking about. Having to wait two hours in traffic is something people do in LA every day and can hardly be equated with being afraid to leave your house because there are people shooting outside. People are afraid for their families, lives and homes on both sides. The violence is scaring people on both sides, and those who own property here are not rich enough to move and who the hell is going to buy their apartments if they wanted to? No one. This is a working class area where even those with means do not have a lot in the way of choices and many feel trapped here. Not trapped in traffic, trapped, with no options besides watch the neighborhood fall apart all around them. The people in the Villa have even fewer choices - and you seem to be making a lot of judgements about people you obviously feel superior to, so you might want to check yourself before you wreck yourself with your proclamations of "equality" when you seem so obviously to be high and mighty from your perch in - where is it? Alto Palermo? Get a clue.

Oh, brother.

Blocking highways and avenues does not fix problems. It creates instability and problems for everyone else. I understand the seriousness of this issue, but this is not the way problems are resolved. You can't sit there blocking the highway and talk about being taken hostage, and then take everyone else hostage. That has about as much logic as the death penalty. And furthermore, they did that yesterday, and how many more people died today? Blocking highways doesn't fix xenophobia.

These people who were protesting were extremely xenophobic. Draping yourself in flags and attacking pregnant women and their husbands cannot be justified and it should not be tolerated in any society.

I don't feel superior to anyone. In fact -- if you had any ability to comprehend the written word -- you would have understood that I advocate for a world where people see each other as people, not as Argentines, Bolivians, or any other arbitrary title.

I find it utterly terrifying to see people draped in their flags, yelling "que se vayan los bolitas y los paraguas!" Don't you? Or is it you that just doesn't have a clue?

 

[jaredwb]

I'm sorry, but there were others calling people street rats and I got carried away. I do understand the nationalistic feeling - I don't agree with the violence or hatred and I think the government is falling asleep at the wheel. CFK gets on the air and gives a speech about how beautiful everyone is and then what?

Here are the photos from tonight: http://www.flickr.com/photos/katesedgwick/sets/72157625573208994/

Edit: Looking over my comment, I don't think I was that rude. That was total false equivalency I was reacting to among other things. I think very often that privileged people fail to realize how rash they are in their judgements of others and more sympathy is warranted. I wonder what any of the people posting on here would do if they felt their homes and lives were possibly in danger. So while you may disagree with my tone and perhaps the way I chose to end my comment, I stand by my assertions, and I think anyone posting on here is miles ahead in terms of advantages than 99% of the people in this neighborhood and should recognize that fact.

What is rash about what anyone said? After all that is happened, I think the forum was very mild in their "judgements". What would you call people that drag an injured person from an ambulance and execute them? What do you call the "street rats" who decide that they are just going to live in the park?

Nobody involved deserves sympathy. Nobody is excused from their disgusting actions because "they don't have options or choices". EVERYONE has options and everyone CHOOSES what they do.

Sure, I, and others on the forum, have had different opportunities then those in the villas. The choices I made have allowed me to live in Palermo Soho. But, there was a time when I struggled to find money for a bus. The difference is that when I had nothing, I WORKED harder and longer...I didn't steal (people or places), cry, or murder.