Welcome to Venezuela

[ndcj]

This actually getting a little tiresome. Ok, you think Hugo is wonderful. Let's look at where Venuezula ranked on the UN index when Hugo took power and where they rank today.

Hang on, I didn't say anything about "Hugo" being wonderful, you're putting words in my mouth.

The above is excerpted from the link below. Its from 2005 but it's still valid today.

http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200509121007

Ok, again explain why Hugo is wonderful and why their rankings on this index have dropped like a rock under his leadership.

Were you not the same person questioning the bias of the link I posted before? vcrisis.com is an accurate source of news?

Again, you ignore facts that are inconvenient to your (lack of) argument. Can you enlighten us why you think PPP is a valid metric of purchasing power in countries with government subsidies on essential services? What about the difference between mean school years (indirect measurement) versus adult literacy (outcome-based measurement)?

Can you tell us more about the signs of erosion of democracy in Venezuela? For extra credit, can you do it with facts and sources?

My beef isn't with your opinion on Venezuela. You're playing fast and loose with the facts and the truth to suit your political bent. That's fine too, but at least fess up to it and don't try and dress it up for what it is not.

 

[ndcj]

GouchoBob, can you please point me to links showing the poverty level in Venezuela in the 1990s, in the early 2000 and now ?

He won't, because it doesn't suit his rhetoric. I can and will.

From the Harvard Review of Latin America, Fall 2008:

"Venezuela has seen a remarkable reduction in poverty since the first quarter of 2003. In the ensuing four years, from 2003 to 2007, the poverty rate was cut in half, from 54 percent of households to 27.5 percent. [...] Extreme poverty fell even more, by 70 percent - from 25.1 percent of households to 7.6 percent."

Even more telling, when you consider the substantial subsidies provided by the government for essentials:

"These poverty rates measure only cash income; as will be discussed below, they do not include non-cash benefits to the poor such as access to health care or education."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8172174/Poverty-Reduction-in-Venezuela-A-Reality-Based-View

You might also want to check out this article:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3436

 

[jaredwb]

He won't, because it doesn't suit his rhetoric. I can and will.

From the Harvard Review of Latin America, Fall 2008:

"Venezuela has seen a remarkable reduction in poverty since the first quarter of 2003. In the ensuing four years, from 2003 to 2007, the poverty rate was cut in half, from 54 percent of households to 27.5 percent. [...] Extreme poverty fell even more, by 70 percent - from 25.1 percent of households to 7.6 percent."

Even more telling, when you consider the substantial subsidies provided by the government for essentials:

"These poverty rates measure only cash income; as will be discussed below, they do not include non-cash benefits to the poor such as access to health care or education."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8172174/Poverty-Reduction-in-Venezuela-A-Reality-Based-View

You might also want to check out this article:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3436

Are you serious!?!? Where did the Ultra Liberal Harvard Review get their numbers?? From Venezuela's Gov! Hello!

ALSO when the Gov lowers DRASTICALLY the "poverty level line" the poverty level "drops" with one HUGO signature.

It's like every respected and legitimate bank institution using the AFIP's numbers on Inflation. WAY inaccurate and outright lies!

Venezuela is a disaster, period!

 

[French jurist]

He won't, because it doesn't suit his rhetoric. I can and will.

I tend to disagree with you. I would bet that GouchoBob will answer my question :
"GouchoBob, can you please point me to links showing the poverty level in Venezuela in the 1990s, in the early 2000 and now ?"

 

[ndcj]

Are you serious!?!? Where did the Ultra Liberal Harvard Review get their numbers?? From Venezuela's Gov! Hello!

ALSO when the Gov lowers DRASTICALLY the "poverty level line" the poverty level "drops" with one HUGO signature.

It's like every respected and legitimate bank institution using the AFIP's numbers on Inflation. WAY inaccurate and outright lies!

Venezuela is a disaster, period!

I think you missed reading the second link.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3436

 

[pauper]

Here are some raw HDI numbers from:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Venezuela % increase in HDI:
1980-1990 (0.611 - 0.620) +1.47%
1990-2000 (0.620 - 0.637) +2.74%
2000-2010 (0.637 - 0.696) +9.26%

The 9.26% increase also supersedes the increases of Brazil and Chile over the period 2000-2010.

As is often the case in contentious issues most people want a narrative (usually with moral) and thus detail and complexity are sacrificed (though it is encouraging to see a few people here motivated by the spirit of enquiry rather than just proving correct their pre conceived notions).

 

[jaredwb]

I think you missed reading the second link.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3436

No, I purposely ignored it because I am very familiar with "fair".org's insanely progressive and socialist agenda and highly inaccurate reporting.

No wonder you are so FAR off if that's where you are getting your "facts" from.

 

[gouchobob]

I tend to disagree with you. I would bet that GouchoBob will answer my question :
"GouchoBob, can you please point me to links showing the poverty level in Venezuela in the 1990s, in the early 2000 and now ?"

The poverty rates that have been reported are as follows:

Percentage of people and households with income below national poverty line
Year
1989 · · · 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
Households – · · · 48.1 43.9 42.0 40.4 39.0 48.6 55.1 47.0 37.9 30.6 28.5
People 31.3 · · · 54.5 50.4 48.7 46.3 45.4 55.4 62.1 53.9 43.7 36.3 33.6


This is from Wikipedia Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela

So this shows poverty went down quite a bit since 1999. Does this tell the whole story, no it doesn't. Is the country doing better overall economically? I think the answer is that its not. It's not growing economically and total wealth in the country has stagnated since Hugo has been in power. The only thing that keeps Hugo going is the oil revenue.

Since 1998 over half a trillion dollars in oil revenue have flowed into the country while per capita GDP has grown only a total of 3.5% in 12 years, this is not the annual growth but the total, in other words almost no progress in really growing the economy or really changing the circumstances for the people of the country.

http://devilsexcrement.com/2011/02/...p-3-5-over-the-last-twelve-years-in-venezuela

Really a terrible record given all the money from oil. The oil income is being squandered with nothing really to show for it. What's going to happen when the oil runs out? By the way oil production is declining significantly under Hugo some believe the country might be headed for a Argentina type default in the next couple of years. Hugo's whole economic approach is about like burning your furniture to heat your house. It will provide heat but at some point you will run out of furniture.

 

[gouchobob]

In my last post I should have pointed out that the poverty numbers are in my opinion from dubious sources, although I do believe the overall poverty rate probably has decreased. The decrease has been achieved by buying off the poor so that Hugo can stay in power without really creating any new growth or wealth that would pull people out of poverty permanently. As soon as the finances get tight you can expect the poverty to increase significantly. The Economist had an interesting article on this very subject in this weeks edition.

http://www.economist.com/node/18233412

 

[marksoc]

He is a authoritarian thug who is leading his country into the abyss. He is trying to export this disease to other countries in the region. Evil like this should be called what it is. To do otherwise is both naive and dangerous.

Did he established concentration camps? Did he tortured innocent teenagers in Guantanamo? Did he invaded another country "just because"? Did he gave 700.000 million USD to private companies, taking the money from the taxpayers? Did he tried to make a "population transfer" according to religion and/or race? Did he took power by non-democratic means? (no) Did he perpetuated himself in power by non-democratic means? (no).

So, what is your problem with him? That is against capitalists? If people in Venezuela want another economic system than the one that you like, they are in their right to do so.