Welcome to Venezuela

[gouchobob]

Hang on, I didn't say anything about "Hugo" being wonderful, you're putting words in my mouth.



Were you not the same person questioning the bias of the link I posted before? vcrisis.com is an accurate source of news?

Again, you ignore facts that are inconvenient to your (lack of) argument. Can you enlighten us why you think PPP is a valid metric of purchasing power in countries with government subsidies on essential services? What about the difference between mean school years (indirect measurement) versus adult literacy (outcome-based measurement)?

Can you tell us more about the signs of erosion of democracy in Venezuela? For extra credit, can you do it with facts and sources?

My beef isn't with your opinion on Venezuela. You're playing fast and loose with the facts and the truth to suit your political bent. That's fine too, but at least fess up to it and don't try and dress it up for what it is not.

Well you can argue with the source but the drop in 27 places in the index is real and shows a deteriorating situation in Venezuela. Can you tell us more about the signs of erosion of democracy in Venezuela, you must be kidding. There has been so much written about this in the last few years you can hardly pick up a newspaper or magazine without hearing more about it. If you want to start another thread on this topic I will be glad to contribute.

 

[ReemsterCARP]

Its funny to read a conversation about poverty in Venezuela and yet little has been said about the petro-bonanza that lasted from 2003 - 2008. The Venezuelan economy is so dependent on oil income that I think poverty reduction in these years had more to do with a skyrocketing local economy (fueled by oil income), than merits of Hugo's social policies. I have yet to find a single study which proves that poverty has decreased because of the government's social policies...

 

[tanvimil]

Its funny to read a conversation about poverty in Venezuela and yet little has been said about the petro-bonanza that lasted from 2003 - 2008. The Venezuelan economy is so dependent on oil income that I think poverty reduction in these years had more to do with a skyrocketing local economy (fueled by oil income), than merits of Hugo's social policies. I have yet to find a single study which proves that poverty has decreased because of the government's social policies...

Did you really look? I found one:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2068957/Update-The-Venezuelan-Economy-in-the-Chavez-Years

If the guy pours billions in to social programs, it's hardly surprising that the effect is a decline in poverty.

And I am getting kinda tired at all attempts to label him as undemocratic. Talk is cheap, offering some kind of proof for the unsubstantiated claims not so much.

 

[John.St]

Actually hes a self-proclaimed Marxist.

East Germany was and North Korea is selfproclaimed democracies, among many others. Go through the IRS files and count the number of rich, selfproclaimed paupers.

 

[gouchobob]

Did you really look? I found one:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2068957/Update-The-Venezuelan-Economy-in-the-Chavez-Years

If the guy pours billions in to social programs, it's hardly surprising that the effect is a decline in poverty.

And I am getting kinda tired at all attempts to label him as undemocratic. Talk is cheap, offering some kind of proof for the unsubstantiated claims not so much.

Actually your source isn't to good. CEPR and Mark Weisbrot are really just Chavez cheerleaders. Weisbrot I guess was supposedly trained as a economist but also functions as a reporter usually trying to shine a positive light on Hugo and like regimes, he was also involved I believe as screenwriter for Oliver Stones pro-Chavez (so called) documentary South of the Border. Basically all Hugo has done is take the oil money and pump up the government and created social programs to buy votes. The per capita income of the people has stagnated since he has been president. In aggregate the Venezuelan people are no better off than they were in 1999, exactly no progress has been made in increasing wealth or growth in the economy which would be a real measure of reducing poverty.

I doubt you would accept any proof or claims from me or anybody else. Of course reports of flagrant human rights abuses and undemocratic actions by his government are really too numerous to list here. I'll give you one links Wikepedia which talks about some of the human rights abuses there have largely eliminated democracy in the country. You can also check with Amnesty International, Freedom House, and the Organization of American States who have been very critical of Hugo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez

 

[gouchobob]

East Germany was and North Korea is selfproclaimed democracies, among many others. Go through the IRS files and count the number of rich, selfproclaimed paupers.

That's true, but Hugo calls himself a Marxist, I would call him a clown but a dangerous one.

 

[John.St]

That's true, but Hugo calls himself a Marxist, I would call him a clown but a dangerous one.

Whatever Chavez is, he is not a clown. Fighting your way to power in Venezuela is not done by a clown.

When he e.g. addressed the British queen he was not clowning but talking to the unwashed masses in Venezuela - populism, "one of us" talking down to a Queen!

 

[ndcj]

The per capita income of the people has stagnated since he has been president. In aggregate the Venezuelan people are no better off than they were in 1999, exactly no progress has been made in increasing wealth or growth in the economy which would be a real measure of reducing poverty.

This is where your argument falls flat. The only real measure of the reduction of poverty is one's access to safe and secure housing, adequate food and clean water, education, health care, etc. It is not measured by abstract concepts like purchasing power parity or any other rubbish abstract concepts that do not guarantee access to life's essentials.

Your metric would have us ignore subsidised access to goods and services and other non-cash non-income social programs. Argue what you like about your opinion of those things, but you can't just make up your own metric to conveniently not include them when considering whether someone is living in poverty.

I doubt you would accept any proof or claims from me or anybody else. Of course reports of flagrant human rights abuses and undemocratic actions by his government are really too numerous to list here. I'll give you one links Wikepedia which talks about some of the human rights abuses there have largely eliminated democracy in the country. You can also check with Amnesty International, Freedom House, and the Organization of American States who have been very critical of Hugo.

Wikipedia is not a source, the main article on human rights in Venezuela is flagged itself as being non-neutral and point of view, with unreliable sources.

Which of the reports you mention assert that democracy has been "largely eliminated"?

Again, my problem isn't with your opinion on Venezuela, which you are more than welcome to. It's with your dressing up those opinions as fact.

 

[gouchobob]

This is where your argument falls flat. The only real measure of the reduction of poverty is one's access to safe and secure housing, adequate food and clean water, education, health care, etc. It is not measured by abstract concepts like purchasing power parity or any other rubbish abstract concepts that do not guarantee access to life's essentials.

I disagree, if you want to truly eliminate poverty you have to grow the pie bigger. All Hugo is doing is cutting the pie into smaller pieces and calling it poverty reduction when actually nothing is being accomplished at all from an overall standpoint.


Your metric would have us ignore subsidised access to goods and services and other non-cash non-income social programs. Argue what you like about your opinion of those things, but you can't just make up your own metric to conveniently not include them when considering whether someone is living in poverty.

Even the subsidized and non-income stuff he gives away must be produced or paid for by somebody and would be included in GDP. His approach to economics is to burn the furniture to heat the house, the problem is you eventually run out of furniture and if you aren't producing anything you then have a big problem.


Wikipedia is not a source, the main article on human rights in Venezuela is flagged itself as being non-neutral and point of view, with unreliable sources.

I offered you several others that are respected international organizations which have a problem with Hugo, why don't you check them out.

Which of the reports you mention assert that democracy has been "largely eliminated"?

I guess arresting judges that make rulings he doesn't like or preventing people legally elected from taking office could count as both human rights abuses and as eliminating democracy, take your pick they are mentioned in the Wikipedia article. You can due a few internet searches on your own, there are numerous documented and well reported instances of actions by Hugo that most would consider anti-democratic and authoritarian. Do your homework.

Again, my problem isn't with your opinion on Venezuela, which you are more than welcome to. It's with your dressing up those opinions as fact.

I would disagree and say that the facts regarding this increasingly despotic regime are not in doubt. People who continue to argue otherwise are not objective and have in fact closed their minds to the facts for their own reasons.

 

[jp]

I disagree, if you want to truly eliminate poverty you have to grow the pie bigger.

You don't actually. Venezuela has vast amounts of wealth, which are distributed incredibly unevenly throughout the country. The pie could treble in size, but if 90% of the wealth is controlled by 10% of the population - poverty will remain endemic.

People who continue to argue otherwise are not objective and have in fact closed their minds to the facts for their own reasons.

I'm afraid this is just as applicable to your own position