What is the situation now?

[Redpossum]

A little over 8% of Argentines are vaccinated. That is nothing. It is extremely logical that in a majority unvaccinated country where there is little assistance from the government, heavy reliance on mass transit, and covid deniers in abundance that the infection rates, and therefore the death rates, would skyrocket. Even in rich countries there are pockets of high infection rates due to the politicization of the vaccine. Even though vaccines are plentiful, many people are not taking them and still proclaiming covid a hoax. You can't fix stupidity, especially piled on with ignorance as a byproduct of poor education and populist demagoguery.

I like the way you dismiss any opinions contrary to your own as stupid, ignorant, or blinded by "populist demagoguery".

But I am confused by the last part. The word "populist" is generally used to slander the Peronists. Yet in this case, it is the peronist government which is pushing the vaccines as hard as they can, while the decidedly non-populist, downright elitist opposition are the ones rabidly agitating against the vaccine. So, please, explain to me how that works. I'm sure it's all Cristina's faulty somehow....

 

[mike29187]

It is a strange reality that could best be described as "fragile".

• Most things (that have not gone out of business) are open. Streets are full of people and cars. Restaurants fairly busy. Cultural activities like museums or theatre usually possible albeit with protocols as with recreational activities like gyms. There is a curfew now but only from midnight until 0600. You can go about your day to day life fairly normally. Heavier restrictions come and go so by the time you read this something may have changed.
• Economic depression is apparent - for me this is the most depressing visual reminder of the situation. The amount of impoverished children, families and old people living and begging on the streets is at a level I have not seen here before.
• Security is perhaps a little worse than usual, but surprisingly it is still not like 2002 (express kidnappings, neighbourhood barricades etc)
• The general mood on the street is pretty bad with confidence in the national government at an all time low after a lot of unnecessary failures, scandals and fiascos against a backdrop of electioneering - it is hard to see a better "tomorrow" and many younger Argentines with the means to do so are leaving in a similar way as the 2001/2 era.
• In terms of being able to travel abroad easily or without fear, not so much. It is possible but there are few flights and a constant paranoia that rules will change at the last moment and leave you stranded or struggling to get home. Domestic travel is possible however restrictions come and go.
• The health situation is like a silent tsunami - like cities in Brazil or Mexico, there is misleading sense of security at times since unlike scenes from Guyaquil last year, you're not going to see bodies left on door steps on the streets. As commented earlier over 90.000 dead and counting for a country of 45 million is a number. Yesterday broke another record in daily deaths.
• The amount of people who have had COVID is really high - it is hard not to have been touched directly or indirectly.
• The health system has held up more or less, but there were some short moments recently where it would have been difficult to get an ICU bed. At the moment it is back to around 70% occupation I think.

The road to recovery still looks long. At lot of things could still go either way. The vaccination program while finally moving (40% of the people in the city having at least one vaccine and 11% with both) has yet to have its achievements tested against the Delta variant or second doses being administered much later than originally contemplated by vaccine producers which could be tests of fire. The supply of vaccines is still rather shaky with uncertainty around when second doses will arrive etc or exactly when vaccines will be available to people - very much a week to week affair.

My overall impression is that Europe or the US etc are far "happier" and "calmer" places to be at the moment in general terms.

When I left in Nov 2019 I remember seeing whole families sleeping on the street,I can only imagine how bad it must be. What about places like bariloche which relied so much on Tourists?

 

[FrankPintor]

When I left in Nov 2019 I remember seeing whole families sleeping on the street,I can only imagine how bad it must be. What about places like bariloche which relied so much on Tourists?

I arrived in late 2017, and seeing whole families sleeping on the street has never been common, at least in my experience (middle class areas like Belgrano, Colegiales, Palermo, Recoleta, Retiro...). I see single people or pairs of people sleeping rough, and mothers with one or more kids waiting outside upmarket supermarkets like Disco or Jumbo to ask customers if they might donate some item. I don't see a major difference between then and now.

And places like Bariloche have very few tourists, it's obviously hitting peope who worked in the tourist industry hard, but locals who can afford the specially priced resident ski pass are not unhappy. Aerolineas plans to expand internal flights for the winter school holidays in July, let's see how that works out.

 

[antipodean]

When I left in Nov 2019 I remember seeing whole families sleeping on the street,I can only imagine how bad it must be. What about places like bariloche which relied so much on Tourists?

I feel it is harder to avoid seeing poverty in the larger cities. The smaller cities tend to hide it better. There are also some important facts that lessen the blow for "tourists towns" versus other centers.
From my often short and superficial observations from recent travels:
- Rosario, more or less the same as I remember it from pre-COVID... downtown, puerto norte depressing with many business closures. Situation far more dangerous now especially in the south zone
- Cordoba, central area very hard hit with a lot of stores and businesses closed - a lot of visible poorer people; Sierras, same as pre-covid if not busier
- Bariloche, same as I remembered it from pre-COVID, if not busier
- San Martin, as above
- Villa Angostura, as above
- Iguazú, same as I remembered it from pre-COVID... not much of a population center to actually judge anyway
- Santa Rosa, dead
- Santiago de Estero, dead
- Comodoro, dead
- Neuquen, a lot of very ramshakle and new looking shacks on the outskirts of the city (not sure if this was the same pre-covid?)
- Calafate, a bit more impacted - much quieter than usual and more tourism businesses appeared to be closed as opposed to general businesses
- Salta, a bit more impacted - much quieter than usual in the city also seemed to be more business closures
- Jujuy, a bit more impacted - much quieter than usual in the city also seemed to be more business closures
- Mendoza, wine area tourism and lodgings seemed as usual

During the summer and easter despite every imaginable crisis, millions of Argentines travelled all over the countries (since many are unable or unwilling to go abroad) and I just heard the winter season will be open for domestic tourism again too.
Most tourism, travel and transport related businesses and employees continue to receive government subsidies (mine included) which makes their position compared to say a small shop owner, contractor, monotribs or hairdresser much better. While many tourism companies have indeed folded, the people "downstream" are the ones who usually end up hardest hit but tourism and general economic interruptions etc, hence on the surface tourist towns look better than cities that live on commerce.

 

[FrankPintor]

A little over 8% of Argentines are vaccinated. That is nothing. It is extremely logical that in a majority unvaccinated country where there is little assistance from the government, heavy reliance on mass transit, and covid deniers in abundance that the infection rates, and therefore the death rates, would skyrocket. Even in rich countries there are pockets of high infection rates due to the politicization of the vaccine. Even though vaccines are plentiful, many people are not taking them and still proclaiming covid a hoax. You can't fix stupidity, especially piled on with ignorance as a byproduct of poor education and populist demagoguery.

Incorrect. If you consider the population of Argentina to be 45 million (Wikipedia, 2019), the health ministry page https://www.argentina.gob.ar/coronavirus/vacuna/aplicadas gives the number of people with 1 or more vaccine doses applied as 18.7 million today, so 40%, not 8%. The situation may not be good, but I hope we can fix at least this stupidity.

Again, if you look at the health ministry page, some provinces like Buenos Aires have stocks of vaccine that haven't been applied yet (something like a million doses). To me, that indicates that the vaccination program is already maxed out, there is no point in screaming about Pfizer or whatever the flavour of the day vaccine is, the logistics of moving vaccines around a huge empty country are limiting progress. Even so, having received 6 million doses in May, and 4 million to date in June, Argentina is not doing badly, and I would say much better than some of the neighbouring countries. Bear in mind also that one dose of any vaccine applied in Argentina provides as much protection as 2 (or more?) doses of a vaccine the neighbouring countries are offering.

 

[Dougie]

I like the way you dismiss any opinions contrary to your own as stupid, ignorant, or blinded by "populist demagoguery".

But I am confused by the last part. The word "populist" is generally used to slander the Peronists. Yet in this case, it is the peronist government which is pushing the vaccines as hard as they can, while the decidedly non-populist, downright elitist opposition are the ones rabidly agitating against the vaccine. So, please, explain to me how that works. I'm sure it's all Cristina's faulty somehow....

Good point. Although I'm not a great fan of Alberto, it's Macri who was downplaying it calling it slightly worse than a flu.

 

[¡Sencillamente yo!]

Anyone who lost someone they cared about and loved is angry. It's understandable.

I feel our leaders, regardless of geography let us down. It really demonstrates how everyone really is on their own during peak times of demand.

If a person needs help and no one else does, usually you get assistance from emergency services, etc ... But when everyone needs help at the same time, forget about it, it's everyone for themself. And this is the scenario playing out worldwide.

A guy like Pensador may have had the right idea. Hunker down and shun everyone who wasn't sharing his mindset. They were a threat to him and what he believed in. Hmmmmm

 

[ventanilla]

A little over 8% of Argentines are vaccinated. That is nothing. It is extremely logical that in a majority unvaccinated country where there is little assistance from the government, heavy reliance on mass transit, and covid deniers in abundance that the infection rates, and therefore the death rates, would skyrocket. Even in rich countries there are pockets of high infection rates due to the politicization of the vaccine. Even though vaccines are plentiful, many people are not taking them and still proclaiming covid a hoax. You can't fix stupidity, especially piled on with ignorance as a byproduct of poor education and populist demagoguery.

8% fully vaccinated, but 35% 1 dose. 1 dose is still huge protection, like 60-70% in most cases minimum

Your assessment is also the opposite. The ones who are against vaccine are not populists they are the so called 'liberals' and conservatives in the opposition. They attacked the Russian and Chinese vaccines as communism and opposition figures like Bullrich even went on TV and said that they would refuse the vaccine if they were offered Sputnik. Macri just last week said Covid was nothing but a flu, yet also travelled to the USA to get vaccinated against it. Their use of the pandemic for politics has been cynical and disgusting and everything they've done has undermined the pandemic response.

Argentina is in reality applying vaccine dosis practically immediately as they arrive, the issue is supply. Unfortunately being a bigger country like Argentina does not help you in getting more vaccines, as the world has a limited supply and everyone's money is worth the same. So small neighbour countries like Uruguay are already almost completely vaccinated but Argentina has a long way to go.

Aside from that, the problem with the country's quarantine was that the government didn't do enough to help the poorest, so they went out and violated it anyway because they had to keep working to put food on their tables. With enough of a stimulus cheque that wouldn't have happened. However the other side of politics wouldn't have done any better on this. They were against the quarantine period from the very start and have been agitating against any measures taken to stop people circulating the virus, as well as greatly downplaying it. Things would've been even worse if they were in power.

A big part of why the government is now afraid to take these sorts of measures is exactly that: the opposition and much of the media who are pro-opposition will immediately attack them for it. So they just do nothing, and now we're living with covid as if everything is normal.

I think they've handled the pandemic very poorly, but also a big part of that is that the other side has completely obstructed what should have been a united response to the pandemic.

 

[zensailor]

8% fully vaccinated, but 35% 1 dose. 1 dose is still huge protection, like 60-70% in most cases minimum

Your assessment is also the opposite. The ones who are against vaccine are not populists they are the so called 'liberals' and conservatives in the opposition. They attacked the Russian and Chinese vaccines as communism and opposition figures like Bullrich even went on TV and said that they would refuse the vaccine if they were offered Sputnik. Macri just last week said Covid was nothing but a flu, yet also travelled to the USA to get vaccinated against it. Their use of the pandemic for politics has been cynical and disgusting and everything they've done has undermined the pandemic response.

Argentina is in reality applying vaccine dosis practically immediately as they arrive, the issue is supply. Unfortunately being a bigger country like Argentina does not help you in getting more vaccines, as the world has a limited supply and everyone's money is worth the same. So small neighbour countries like Uruguay are already almost completely vaccinated but Argentina has a long way to go.

Aside from that, the problem with the country's quarantine was that the government didn't do enough to help the poorest, so they went out and violated it anyway because they had to keep working to put food on their tables. With enough of a stimulus cheque that wouldn't have happened. However the other side of politics wouldn't have done any better on this. They were against the quarantine period from the very start and have been agitating against any measures taken to stop people circulating the virus, as well as greatly downplaying it. Things would've been even worse if they were in power.

A big part of why the government is now afraid to take these sorts of measures is exactly that: the opposition and much of the media who are pro-opposition will immediately attack them for it. So they just do nothing, and now we're living with covid as if everything is normal.

I think they've handled the pandemic very poorly, but also a big part of that is that the other side has completely obstructed what should have been a united response to the pandemic.

I agree......with the exception of your last sentence.....I don't think they have '' handled the pandemic very poorly ''.......they have handled it as best they could considering the unfounded and politically biased opposition.....it may be nitpicking, but I would word it.....'' management of the pandemic has been less than ideal as a result of the self-serving and counterproductive rantings of an intransigent opposition. ''

 

[antipodean]

Things would've been even worse if they were in power.

I’m not a fan of Macri and also under no doubts it would have been different. However I would struggle to say it would be “worse” with any confidence at all. Today Argentina is comparable to Bolsonaro’s Brazil or the damage that was done in Trump’s USA or AMLO’s Mexico.

Argentina is still at the bottom of the heap when it comes to Bloomberg’s ratings that assess various indicators and near the top when it comes to Hopkins deaths per 100.000.
Whichever way you measure it, this Argentine government that calls the shots and has the responsibility of finding effective ways to govern has failed miserably. Like anywhere in the world the vaccines of today won’t undo harm already inflicted, nor will pure conjecture minimize that.

What does anyone seriously expect from Populism (and also, Argentine/ Latin American society) regardless of its economic or idealogical orientation?