What Would Dollarization Mean for Expats?

[Agribotics]

Argentina's government is a kleptocracy. The political class uses state money to buy votes so it has the power to steal money legally. They create a bureaucratic class to serve their kleptocracy. The bureaucratic class has only one goal: siphon up as much money as it can to serve its masters while doing as little as it has to to keep the kleptocracy functioning.

 

[TWB103]

Those fore attached articles might not paint the whole picture but are they factually incorrect? Peronism deliberately blurs the lines. 'Its not far left because ... ' 'But yet no centre left country controls and manipulates production and the populace the way Argentina does by the extent it handles the currency, protectionism etc. Its not illegal being an entrepreneur in Argentina depending on international trade but good luck! If CFK ever has to flee Argentina she's probably going to Cuba or Venezuela..

 

[SinPulgas]

LOL I needed a laugh like this after a long day of work

While I don't necessarily agree with the framing vis a vis individual liberty, you're basically spot on: the person that wrote the article (and the people who liked it) are as economically literate as Massa himself. It's basically the local version of Republicans calling people like Bill Clinton, the father of 21st century American neoliberalism a communist. Words have meaning, and as someone who subscribes to far left political ideologies themself, I can't help but laugh any time I see people say "Argentina's problem is socialism/communism/marxism/etc."

Let's review:

• Argentina has never had a leftist, communist, or socialist president
• There are currently 4 people in congress who subscribe to this philosophy, and they're all Trotskyites from the FIT-U coalition
• Here is an article in which even Cristina identifies as an anti-communist, literally setting out a 20th Century Corporatist vision of Macroeconomics: "Cristina Kirchner to businessmen at Campora Meeting: "We need a virtuous alliance between capital and labor... Capitalism is the most efficient model . Watch ' Goodbye Lenin ' to end the discussion". You would be crucified if you said such a thing to socialists, and people who argue such beliefs are routinely mocked amongst lefts, including in groups I belong to, and she's the mother of the current flavor of Peronism
• If Peronists were socialists, they would have come in second with 7,089,582 votes, beating JxC during the PASO, but instead 628,893 votes went to FIT-U
• As Frank points out, there is no worker control of the means of production beyond basic co-ops you find in the most right wing countries
• Private property is hoarded and this is literally being complained about (by the same expats) in another thread due to the ridiculous rents being sought as a hedge against inflation
• American, Canadian, and Chinese firms control many mineral mining projects, and foreigners, rich locals, etc. can own as much productive agricultural land as they want (almost every leftist government starts with land reform)
• The security state is incredibly weak here: was the Soviet Union, DDR, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. known for uncontrolled petty crime in the neighborhoods inhabited by working class people? Hell no, now look at Zona Sur and Rosario and tell me that shit would be tolerated in Cuba
• YPF is a publicly traded company literally listed on the NYSE, the home of American capitalism and economic imperialism, Saudi Aramco is owned 90% by the KSA vs. 51% for YPF

I could go on, but it's a fruitless endeavor when you have communists running against Massa for president saying "vote for me, I hate Massa because I'm a communist" and people are still like "Wow, look at that commie Massa!" because Milei thinks public education is Marxism.

Unfortunate commentary in a post from someone whose posts I always enjoy reading. Although I understand your take on the article.

The reason that I think the article is excellent is that if you separate all the references to far-left, far-right, socialism, and other similar more-than-dubious qualifiers, and only look at the facts in the article, the things that have actually occurred, with plenty of hard numbers to back them up and irrespective of political ideology, it is a very good summary of what has been going on in Argentina during the twenty years that I've been here.

I'm not "right wing," I'm not stupid, and I didn't really appreciate the insult. I haven't always agreed with everything you've written, but I didn't insult you. But think what you will.

 

[Redpossum]

I liked this article - https://internationalman.com/articles/doug-casey-on-the-worlds-first-anarcho-capitalist-president

"If Milei is elected, he’ll radically reduce taxes, which means that costs of production will drop radically. As the country dollarizes, the currency will stabilize, and gold could come next. Real prices could drop further, but not because of a collapsing currency. The economy should boom economically as investment pours in. People will go back to work, start saving, and rebuild domestic capital. Argentina could quickly become, again, one of the world’s richest countries."

Yes. Of course. The streets will be paved with gold, and the women will go naked on the beaches.

 

[Quilombo]

Unfortunate commentary in a post from someone whose posts I always enjoy reading. Although I understand your take on the article.

The reason that I think the article is excellent is that if you separate all the references to far-left, far-right, socialism, and other similar more-than-dubious qualifiers, and only look at the facts in the article, the things that have actually occurred, with plenty of hard numbers to back them up and irrespective of political ideology, it is a very good summary of what has been going on in Argentina during the twenty years that I've been here.

I'm not "right wing," I'm not stupid, and I didn't really appreciate the insult. I haven't always agreed with everything you've written, but I didn't insult you. But think what you will.

But it's akin to saying Argentina has inflation problem (accurate), a excessive monetary issuance policy (accurate), but then framing these things as the result of Argentine President Bill Clinton's policy (not the President) which is destroying the East Asian country of Argentina (not where Argentina is located), two things that are factually wrong, even if the other two are true.

I struggle to trust someone's opinion or broader framing of an issue if they actively chose to misrepresent the facts, especially when it's not something that's remotely subjective (like what's the best flavor of ice cream, or debatable such as an ideal employment rate), but a core component of the entire thesis. If you argue Argentina's problem is socialism, and Argentina has never been governed by socialists or anything resembling Marxist political economy, it's hard for me to take people seriously, especially when they should know better.

 

[Ries]

Menem privatized a huge swath of government owned industries over 30 years ago. IF, and its a big IF, the policies of the military dictatorship, with its over 40 military owned companies, as well as the government owned utilities, mineral, and petroleum industries were actually "left wing", then that changed by the early 90s. (I think a lot of the government owned companies were not socialist in any way, but corrupt, benefiting established figures of authority)
Protectionism, which is the main objection by many critics of current Argentine trade policy, is not inherently either left or right wing. Its usually done to protect local ownership of profitable companies- the vast majority of those privatized in Argentina and protected by the high tariffs, taxes, duties, and frictional costs, are actually owned by a handful of right of center families, who have actually given us their share of politicians who keep those policies in place.

 

[Redpossum]

Menem privatized a huge swath of government owned industries over 30 years ago. IF, and its a big IF, the policies of the military dictatorship, with its over 40 military owned companies, as well as the government owned utilities, mineral, and petroleum industries were actually "left wing", then that changed by the early 90s. (I think a lot of the government owned companies were not socialist in any way, but corrupt, benefiting established figures of authority)
Protectionism, which is the main objection by many critics of current Argentine trade policy, is not inherently either left or right wing. Its usually done to protect local ownership of profitable companies- the vast majority of those privatized in Argentina and protected by the high tariffs, taxes, duties, and frictional costs, are actually owned by a handful of right of center families, who have actually given us their share of politicians who keep those policies in place.

Mmm, well said. Much truth in two paragraphs. Also a refreshing absence of opinion.

Maybe we should organize a "Politics in Argentina" learning tour. Class one could consist of a visit to the HQ of FiT -
"Here we have the true Argentine Socialist in his native habitat. If you call them socialists, they will not be insulted, they will proudly confirm it. Then they will give you a 40-minute lecture about the historical dialectic. Your tour guide will wait for you in the bar across the street while you enjoy that part. Come find her when you've heard enough."

 

[earlyretirement]

"If Milei is elected, he’ll radically reduce taxes, which means that costs of production will drop radically. As the country dollarizes, the currency will stabilize, and gold could come next. Real prices could drop further, but not because of a collapsing currency. The economy should boom economically as investment pours in. People will go back to work, start saving, and rebuild domestic capital. Argentina could quickly become, again, one of the world’s richest countries."

Yes. Of course. The streets will be paved with gold, and the women will go naked on the beaches.

I don't think anyone is saying things will be easy. I've always told it like it is on this forum and others. Argentina is in for a world of hurt no matter who is President. Like I posted before, my first trip to Argentina there were 5 presidents in 2 weeks. Let's see what happens.

But Argentina needs a change. That much I don't know how ANYONE can argue with.

 

[sts7049]

But it's akin to saying Argentina has inflation problem (accurate), a excessive monetary issuance policy (accurate), but then framing these things as the result of Argentine President Bill Clinton's policy (not the President) which is destroying the East Asian country of Argentina (not where Argentina is located), two things that are factually wrong, even if the other two are true.

I struggle to trust someone's opinion or broader framing of an issue if they actively chose to misrepresent the facts, especially when it's not something that's remotely subjective (like what's the best flavor of ice cream, or debatable such as an ideal employment rate), but a core component of the entire thesis. If you argue Argentina's problem is socialism, and Argentina has never been governed by socialists or anything resembling Marxist political economy, it's hard for me to take people seriously, especially when they should know better.

it might not have been 100% aligned with the dictionary definition of socialism, but it's definitely under the umbrella. i ndon't see how you could argue otherwise.

socialism takes many forms. if the hard K's and Grabois had his way with this universal basic income, that right there is a big red flag.

 

[TWB103]

[/QUOTE]

But it's akin to saying Argentina has inflation problem (accurate), a excessive monetary issuance policy (accurate), but then framing these things as the result of Argentine President Bill Clinton's policy (not the President) which is destroying the East Asian country of Argentina (not where Argentina is located), two things that are factually wrong, even if the other two are true.

I struggle to trust someone's opinion or broader framing of an issue if they actively chose to misrepresent the facts, especially when it's not something that's remotely subjective (like what's the best flavor of ice cream, or debatable such as an ideal employment rate), but a core component of the entire thesis. If you argue Argentina's problem is socialism, and Argentina has never been governed by socialists or anything resembling Marxist political economy, it's hard for me to take people seriously, especially when they should know better.

It doesn't really matter if Argentina has ever had a 'Socialist' or 'Marxist' government by name.

Whatever a political system is called it's how the system actually works (or doesn't) and how the populace are affected that matters. In effect it is more a centrally planned economy than free market.

Argentina is not a centre left, South American Sweden and is increasingly closer to Cuba economically and politically. For which many see Milei as the solution.

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Heritage.org

Argentina’s economic freedom score is 51.0, making its economy the 144th freest in the 2023 Index. Its score is essentially unchanged from last year. Argentina is ranked 27th among 32 countries in the Americas region, and its overall score is below the regional and world averages.

Aggravated by corruption and political interference, the lack of judicial independence has severely eroded limits on government. Leftist spending measures and price controls distort markets, and government interference still hobbles the financial sector. Fading confidence in the government’s determination to promote or even sustain open markets has discouraged entrepreneurship.