What's happening to this country?

[Gringoboy]

I, for one am getting disturbed by many things.
The tragic accident yesterday, where families are still looking for their loved ones.
The fact that the press are not allowed to ask questions to a panel of ministers. which even the USA President will do when appropriate and almost always in difficult times.
Project X.... whatever the hell that is. In my view a force to subjugate the masses, spy on those in opposition and terminate them, perhaps?
As time progresses, I can only see the political/para military situation here getting much worse; made worse by the fact that there is no real opposition to speak of.
I hope and wish that the Argentine people stand up and be counted and when they do, I will be one of them.

 

[robinho9]

i love argentina and i also like its people, especially those outside of Cap.Fed.
but i`ve never seen so much indifference. they don`t seem to care what the politicians and the corrupt system is doing (to them). they shrug their shoulder and say "es asi, es argentina". they do complain about them here and there and you can hear that many aren`t happy with them but they don`t really do something about it. 25% inflation in germany? people will set Merkels house on fire. But nothing will ever change if they just take what they get and don`t stand up. instead of casting an invalid vote (which is also a statement) some people - already not satisfied with the K`s - voted for CFK, because there`s no alternative... maybe that`s true, the opposition is a joke here, but i never would vote for my own butcher.
it`s such a shame. i really see a country with great opportunies going to shreds once again..if not this year, then next. you don`t need to study economics to find out that the numbers here don`t add up

 

[mercjoe]

I would set on fire Kirchner houses and hotels, believe me. And there lots who would also do it. But most are just sedated for some reason.

I'm a local and I can't understand it either.

That might be the reason, indifference and resignation. "Y bue.., ¿ que le vas a hacer ?" most actually believe there's no hope and this will never get better. And they don't believe they have the right to claim for their real "needs".

As strange as it might look that's the way it is. There are lots like me totally confused and perplexed though. We've been through crap in the past, but I've never thought it could get this far.

i love argentina and i also like its people, especially those outside of Cap.Fed.
but i`ve never seen so much indifference. they don`t seem to care what the politicians and the corrupt system is doing (to them). they shrug their shoulder and say "es asi, es argentina". they do complain about them here and there and you can hear that many aren`t happy with them but they don`t really do something about it. 25% inflation in germany? people will set Merkels house on fire. But nothing will ever change if they just take what they get and don`t stand up. instead of casting an invalid vote (which is also a statement) some people - already not satisfied with the K`s - voted for CFK, because there`s no alternative... maybe that`s true, the opposition is a joke here, but i never would vote for my own butcher.
it`s such a shame. i really see a country with great opportunies going to shreds once again..if not this year, then next. you don`t need to study economics to find out that the numbers here don`t add up

 

[chris]

People are resigned. They have never really had democracy. Dictatorship after dictatorship. The military even bombed the Plaza de Mayo with civilians present so that they could get Peron out of office. Go to you tube. You can see the shocking video. Then authoritarian "civilian" governments. A culture of democratic participation never developed. The general attitude is that there is nothing you can do, so just survive any way you can.

 

[Crema Americana]

For things to get better here, it's going to take sacrifice and honesty both from the people and government. The problem isn't particular to Argentina, but its just being strung along with a poor foundation. You can fake things for a while, but sooner or later there are consequences for being cheap, shabby, or questionable. However doing things the right way takes thought, planning, and a bit of hard work and sacrifice... not to mention integrity... which few are interested in. They want easy quick solutions to complicated problems. Everything is "good enough" and people don't expect or demand better. As long as they have futbol and wine, all is good!

It really all boils down to priorities and self determination (and the intelligence to not get strung along by a government that promises the impossible.) Of course past presidents have been so bad that it makes the Kirchners actually look reasonable... I think that's a large part of the problem as well. Argentines have become too complacent about corruption and do not expect better for themselves. I can understand the resignment if everyone you "vote" for turns out to be a crook and the country booms and then busts.... repeatedly. It has to be demoralizing.

 

[steveinbsas]

I would set on fire Kirchner houses and hotels, believe me. And there lots who would also do it. But most are just sedated for some reason.

I'm a local and I can't understand it either.

That might be the reason, indifference and resignation. "Y bue.., ¿ que le vas a hacer ?" most actually believe there's no hope and this will never get better. And they don't believe they have the right to claim for their real "needs".

As strange as it might look that's the way it is. There are lots like me totally confused and perplexed though. We've been through crap in the past, but I've never thought it could get this far.

Does "I'm a local" mean you are a citizen of Argentina?

Even if you aren't, perhaps you can appreciate that some things in this country have changed...for the better.

Forty years ago your first sentence would definitely have resulted in your arrest.

Then you would have been lucky to only have a "device" that delivers an electric shock inserted in your anus (and used with skill as you are interrogated).

That certainly would have been better than being thrown out of an airplane (alive and unsedated).

Hopefully, it won't go that far...again.

 

[chris]

Eclair, What you suggest is not likely to happen because it requires a different mindset, a different culture and a different set of values. What makes Switzerland Switzerland, for example, is a completely different approach to life that can not be replicated in Argentina. People do not work together. There is little concern for the common good. People prefer to be independent. Go to any consocrio meeting and see what I mean. No order. No respect for each other. People argue and insult each other and little gets done. It is a microcosm of the nation. Some of this culture is now affecting leading nations like the US. Greed, selfishness, lack of discipline have permeated American society. Look at Congress and its inability to work together. The US would not be in its financial crisis if the old values of spending what you have, saving, looking out for the public welfare etc were still widespread and respected. It is just much worse in Argentina. Some argue that it has a lot to do with the southern European traditions of the people which have never lent themselves to discipline and order. Nations like Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece are the worst off now and it may very well have something to do with culture, just as Germany and Switzerland are stable and productive in large part because of culture.

I don't know that I agree that past civilian governments were worse that what Argentina has now. There is a widespread sentiment that Menem is responsible for all ills but I am not so sure that is true. It is easy to scapegoat one government when in fact the problems are far deeper and hardly began with the Menem administration. When Menen took power phones didn't work, utilities were unreliable. There had been severe hyper inflation that makes today's 25-30% look insignificant. We can get into arguments about the terrible deamon Carlos Memem but in realty the issues are far more pervasive. Over the years I have heard countless Argentines complain about the system but I see the very same people routinely cheating and lying. You can not pin all the blame on politicians when politicians come from the people, are elected by the people and stay in power with the people's consent. Politicians merely reflect the nature of the society. Argentina has great resources but will not develop until the mentality of the people changes -- I don't see how that can happen.

 

[chris]

Steve of course is right that military governments were major abusers of human rights but those governments were supported by Argentines who were weary of violence from the far left. Tolerating extremes seems another characteristic of the country - governments have gone from the far right to the far left. Of course Argentina has progressed greatly with respect to rejecting military dictatorship and the use of torture but so have most other reasonably developed western oriented countries. It would be hard to imagine Argentine clinging to military repression on a continent that has completely rejected military dictatorship. The greater problem is how to transform an authoritarian, albeit far more benign, civilian government into one that is truly democratic. As I said earlier, this require cultural changes that will be very difficult to effect.

 

[mercjoe]

Look, yes I'm an Argentine. I've lived that period as a young boy, my parents and grandparents lived in this country since the 19th century. So honestly your opinion relally doesn't count much for me.

Also, at that time that you mentioned, being a relative to a police, a militar a politician, some union president or "whatever" could cost your life in hands of montoneros, just because they had a "dream". Who ended all that killing, the Kirchners ? no those were heroes for them.

Do I have to be worried about being kidnapped. No, thank god Alfonsin gave and end to that, not kirchner.

¿ Do I have to thank for being able to say what I think ? no, it's been long since the junta's gone, Alfonsin gave an end to that, not kirchner. And there was much more freedom during alfonsin's and Menem's periods. MUCH more.

I wonder why are there so many people telling me to shut up and stop saying things like the things I'm saying here ? I guess they don't feel the freedom "a la Kirchner" as you do.

Not once but several times KKs told me to shut up or they would put a bullet on my head by simply giving my point of view. that's what this government is all about, they teach hate. So you telling me they brought freedom to this country just make me laugh.

Stop teaching history about my country cause you obviously have no clue.

This people are the worst thing that could ever happened to this country. Ever.

Does "I'm a local" mean you are a citizen of Argentina?

Even if you aren't, perhaps you can appreciate that some thigs in this country have changed...for the better.

Forty years ago your first sentence would definitely have resulted in your arrest.

Then you would have been lucky to only have a "device" that delivers an electric shock inserted in your anus (and used with skill as you are interrogated).

That certainly would have been better than being thrown out of an airplane (alive and unsedated).

Hopefully, it won't go that far...again.

 

[steveinbsas]

Steve of course is right that military governments were major abusers of human rights but those governments were supported by Argentines who were weary of violence from the far left. Tolerating extremes seems another characteristic of the country - governments have gone from the far right to the far left. Of course Argentina has progressed greatly with respect to rejecting military dictatorship and the use of torture but so have most other reasonably developed western oriented countries. It would be hard to imagine Argentine clinging to military repression on a continent that has completely rejected military dictatorship. The greater problem is how to transform an authoritarian, albeit far more benign, civilian government into one that is truly democratic. As I said earlier, this require cultural changes that will be very difficult to effect.

And I'm sure there were many who never thought that Germany could ever lead the world into war in the 1930's after what happened thirty years earlier.

It doesn't take a military dictatorship to strip citizens of their individual rights.

All it takes is democracy.