What's happening to this country?

Gringoboy said:
I, for one am getting disturbed by many things.
The tragic accident yesterday, where families are still looking for their loved ones.
The fact that the press are not allowed to ask questions to a panel of ministers. which even the USA President will do when appropriate and almost always in difficult times.
Project X.... whatever the hell that is. In my view a force to subjugate the masses, spy on those in opposition and terminate them, perhaps?
As time progresses, I can only see the political/para military situation here getting much worse; made worse by the fact that there is no real opposition to speak of.
I hope and wish that the Argentine people stand up and be counted and when they do, I will be one of them. :confused:

What could possibly be more distrubing than invading IRAQ based on lies resuling in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of by standers? resulting in tens of thousands of oraphns. Now that is a tragety made by decisions and not an accident.

And if I were a minister I would not step out into answering questions until the investigations were completed.. that is just comon sense.
 
mercjoe said:
Look, yes I'm an Argentine. I live that period as a young boy, my parents and grandparents lived in this country since the 19th century. So honestly your opinion relally doesn't count much for me.

Also, at that time that you mentioned, being a relative to a police, a militar a politician, some union president or "whatever" could cost your life in hands of montoneros, just because they had a "dream". Who ended all that killing, Kirchner ? no those were heroes for them.

Do I have to be worried about being kidnapped. No, thank god Alfonsin gave and end to that, not kirchner.

¿ Do I have to thank for being able to say what I think ? no, it's been long since the junta's gone, Alfonsin gave an end to that, not kirchner. And there was much more freedom during alfonsin's and Menem's periods. MUCH more.

I wonder why are there so many people telling me to shut up and stop saying things like I said here ? I guess they don't feel the freedom "a la Kirchner" as you do.

Not once but several times KKs told me to shut up or they would put a bullet on my head by simply giving my point of view. that's what this government is all about, they teach hate. So you telling me they brought freedom to this country just make me laugh.

Stop teaching history about my country cause you obviously have no clue.

This people is the worst thing that could ever happened to this country. Ever.




I never said the Ks brought freedom to Argentina.

But they certianly aren't the worst thing that ever happened here.

I am only one of many foreigners who actually chose to live in Argentina, learning it's history, embracing it's culture, and hoping to thrive as well as make a contrubution...just like your ancestors.
 
steveinbsas said:
And I'm sure there were many who never thought that Germany could ever lead the world into war in the 1930's after what happened thirty years earlier.

It doesn't take a military dictatorship to strip citizens of their individual rights.

All it takes is democracy.


Not sure I understand. Are you saying that rights are being eroded under the current Kirchner government? If that is what you are saying, I'd agree.
 
chris said:
Eclair, What you suggest is not likely to happen because it requires a different mindset, a different culture and a different set of values. What makes Switzerland Switzerland, for example, is a completely different approach to life that can not be replicated in Argentina. People do not work together. There is little concern for the common good. People prefer to be independent. Go to any consocrio meeting and see what I mean. No order. No respect for each other. People argue and insult each other and little gets done. It is a microcosm of the nation. Some of this culture is now affecting leading nations like the US. Greed, selfishness, lack of discipline have permeated American society. Look at Congress and its inability to work together. The US would not be in its financial crisis if the old values of spending what you have, saving, looking out for the public welfare etc were still widespread and respected. It is just much worse in Argentina. Some argue that it has a lot to do with the southern European traditions of the people which have never lent themselves to discipline and order. Nations like Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece are the worst off now and it may very well have something to do with culture, just as Germany and Switzerland are stable and productive in large part because of culture.

I don't know that I agree that past civilian governments were worse that what Argentina has now. There is a widespread sentiment that Menem is responsible for all ills but I am not so sure that is true. It is easy to scapegoat one government when in fact the problems are far deeper and hardly began with the Menem administration. When Menen took power phones didn't work, utilities were unreliable. There had been severe hyper inflation that makes today's 25-30% look insignificant. We can get into arguments about the terrible deamon Carlos Memem but in realty the issues are far more pervasive. Over the years I have heard countless Argentines complain about the system but I see the very same people routinely cheating and lying. You can not pin all the blame on politicians when politicians come from the people, are elected by the people and stay in power with the people's consent. Politicians merely reflect the nature of the society. Argentina has great resources but will not develop until the mentality of the people changes -- I don't see how that can happen.

Oh, thanks for saying it! Exactly my thoughts... I was just going to put the consorcio meetings as an example... Every time I go to one, I go back home with the hopeless feeling and conviction that all is lost. We have gotten involved in the consejo after much hard work and made great progress, but it feels like a drop in the ocean. It gets tiring.
 
I think we may find that many Argentines are prepared to react to the disaster at Once and other aspects of this govt in more ways than we think.
 
tomdesigns said:
What could possibly be more distrubing than invading IRAQ based on lies resuling in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of by standers? resulting in tens of thousands of oraphns. Now that is a tragety made by decisions and not an accident.

Thank you. The righteous indignation of Americans and other expats seems a little misplaced.

The difference between Argentina and the US is that in the US, you get scammed, deceived and bullshitted at a large, national scale, while in Argentina, you might easily have something added to your restaurant bill that you didn't order.

I suppose it's fine to prefer the former, since it seemingly introduces less headaches into pedestrian, everyday existence, but let's not let go of reality completely. The US is no shining beacon of rectitude, and is most certainly, most emphatically no stranger to extensive government corruption, especially at a large scale. This is a factual issue that has little to do with extreme political ideology one way or another; the reality is, the US Congress is awash in regulatory capture, partly through the efforts of an unprecedented army of lobbyists, and partly through its long-standing revolving-door cronyism. State legislatures are, in many ways, even worse.

I'm not saying the two countries are functionally the same. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that day-to-day life in the US isn't easier, more convenient, more predictable and perhaps safer (depending on where you live) for a vast majority of its residents. The centers of global empires tend to be nice places to live. I just think there's a lot of presumptuousness in lecturing Argentines about how messed up their country is and how they are too spineless to do anything about it. The US has a laundry list of deep-seated issues in its polity that undermine its present and future stability and prosperity at a profound, existential level, and nobody's doing anything about them.

Are CFK's populist supporters really so much different from "git government hands off my Medicare!" Tea Party rabble on the one hand? Are the protectionist measures so out of sync with futile Democratic top-down "job creation" ventures? How do you weigh INDEC's antics against "quantitative easing" and unsustainable deficits and debt loads? Is the relationship between government and domestic industry in Argentina so much more indictable than US$2T in Wall Street "bailouts"? Does the massive mortgage securities bust and resulting contagion really compare so favourably to the Argentine house of cards? Is rampant jingoism and nationalism, especially over the Malvinas question, so unlike the enthusiastic flag-waving "united we stand" crowd that allowed Afghanistan and Iraq to play out of America's underbelly of militarism, albeit with magnitudinally more devastating consequences? Is "fútbol para todos!" so much different from the surreal "bread and circus" universe, inhabited by such a vast preponderance of the American working class, of giants chasing after a brown, oblong pig-skin ball amidst inane sportscaster blather and commercial brand bombardment?

Expats are sensitive to what's wrong in Argentina because it has a different flavour, because it's different from the kind of corruption and ridiculousness that they've accepted back home their whole life unquestioningly, or with minimal resistance, or an apathetic shrug and a certain jaded fatalism. Why should we deny Argentines the right to do the same about their particular strains of societal pathologies, bureaucratic sclerosis, governmental lunacy, etc?
 
AlexanderB said:
Thank you. The righteous indignation of Americans and other expats seems a little misplaced.

The difference between Argentina and the US is that in the US, you get scammed, deceived and bullshitted at a large, national scale, while in Argentina, you might easily have something added to your restaurant bill that you didn't order.

Maybe... but you can count on your community, class group, friends, small network to do "the right thing". You can't even do that here. No one gives a damn about the bigger picture. It is all about me me me.

I have mentioned this before... my best friend lets her Labrador out unleashed in the middle of Libertador in Nunez... poops everywhere, scares smaller dogs, people, traffic... and she does not give a damn... No respect and not aware that she is setting a bad example for her small sons. Just an example in a thousand. Same with "consorcio" meetings mentioned by Chris on a previous post.
 
tomdesigns said:
What could possibly be more distrubing than invading IRAQ based on lies resuling in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of by standers? resulting in tens of thousands of oraphns. Now that is a tragety made by decisions and not an accident.

And if I were a minister I would not step out into answering questions until the investigations were completed.. that is just comon sense.

Don't see the analogy. One big difference of course is the people who made the Iraq decisions are today largely discredited and out of office. The Kirchners were in office at the same time and 9 years latter still are and beginning yet another term, with talk of changing the constitution so they can stay indefinitely. Thank god they don't have the resources to make bad decisions like the U.S. sometimes does, can you imagine what would happen if they did.
 
I used to live in a gated community (Barrio cerrado) and the concorcio/asemblea meetings were a sight for sore eyes. Bun fights basically.
I would dearly like to have been armed with several large cream pies that they could have thrown at each other.
That would have been a laugh.
 
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