what's the deal with $USD in argentina?

[solerboy]

I would have guessed most would prefer to pay with plastic avoiding pesos and dollars altogether, but up until now even established agents (like Reynolds or AptsBA) didn't accept plastic. I don't what know they are doing about dollar contracts.

It is true that most clients would prefer to pay using plastic. However the majority of property owners I am used to dealing with only own one or two apartments and it would be worth their while setting up a merchant account.

A number of agencies t do accept the reservation deposits usualy by credit card or paypal, and I am sure would extend this service to the whole of the rent if the central bank money moving regulations would be more flexible.

I do work in the rental business but as a representative of clients not landlords. My experience is that 95% of landlords are honest and want to provide a good service for their clients, normally problems can be resolved to suit all parties. Before the imposition of the dollar restrictions last month landlords were always happy to accept pesos at the official rate.

 

[scarface]

It is true that most clients would prefer to pay using plastic. However the majority of property owners I am used to dealing with only own one or two apartments and it would be worth their while setting up a merchant account.
A number of agencies t do accept the reservation deposits usualy by credit card or paypal, and I am sure would extend this service to the whole of the rent if the central bank money moving regulations would be more flexible.
I do work in the rental business but as a representative of clients not landlords. My experience is that 95% of landlords are honest and want to provide a good service for their clients, normally problems can be resolved to suit all parties. Before the imposition of the dollar restrictions last month landlords were always happy to accept pesos at the official rate.

Now we are approaching agreement. I never questioned the integrity of most landlords.
I am curious, however, why you say that the central bank money moving restrictions affect the acceptability of plastic for payments of rent. I know it would cost to set up a merchant account to process the plastic payments, but in what way do the central bank restrictions discourage plastic payments? Isn't it just a matter of having to report the payment as income as opposed to taking the money off the books to avoid taxes? If it is, I don't have a lot of sympathy for agencies especially the ones that already have the merchant account and build the cost of processing into the total fee.

 

[Greenman]

Like they say in argentina....
Dont worry about they law This is argentina!
And its true it took me a long time to shed the negative conditioning and fear of the law created in the united states...
You are free here remember that!

 

[jb5]

Really Solerboy? After renting extensively here it's my opinion that most landlords renting in the non local market are dishonest tax evaders.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

It really is a totally ludicrous statement to say that it is greed that drives landlords to demand dollars.

The peso is a volotile currency. Why should any business person not seek to protect their interest in any way they can.

No any way is legal. In Rome, after signing a pact (a contract) with barbarians, they used to take hostages to protect the enforcement of the contract. I am sure that if you ask for a family member as a hostage your interest will be better protected but this is illegal, as illegal as the indexation clauses like to ask for dollars.

I dont know Argentine law, but I studied business law in the UK.

No offence.
Your statement is something like I studied cosmetology by I feel prepared to make your heart operation. Sorry, I would prefer an specialist.

A clear component of any contract is agreement. If someone offers a contract and you dont like the terms of the contract then you are perfectly entitled to decline to enter into thar contract.

This might be like this if you are talking about buying something like a car or a dress.

However, a housing contract negociation is not a relationship where you have two equals. Instead you have the landlord (strong) and the tennant (weak). the law seeks to compensate for unequal power relations.

There are two different contracts circunstances. Private contract rules where you can negociate almost whatever and Public Order rules that cannot being ignored. For example, the prohibition of slavery is a public order rule. It means that if there is a clause that means slavery it is considered not writen and the public order rules prevail. For example, we sign a contract that said that I am going to work for free for you. If I go to a labor judge, he is going to assert that the work is presumed paid, so you have to pay for all the hours I already worked plus fines plus you are going to be criminally prosecuted.

About housing it s the same. Whatever is against the housing law (that is a public order law) is considered not written.

If after entering into that contract, your personal circumstances change (IE you can no longer get dollars at the price you would like),

You cannot enforce a clause that was forbidden before you sign it.
In fact this is not like that and the leading case is from the UK. La gente habia alquilado los balcones que daban a la calle para ver pasar al rey luego de la coronacion. Pero la ceremonia se cancelo y esos contratos dejaron de tener sentido porque nadie contrato los balcones para ver pasar a su tia por la calle.

then this is your personal circumstance and should be of no concern to the other party in the contract.

In fact, we have over 2000 years of culture regarding contracts that are not enforzable because of new circunstances that happend after signing and were not expected. It is called "hecho fortuito" o "fuerza mayor", for example, a war, a hurricane, etc.

To call landlords greedy is both wrong and patronising.

Greedy is somebody who wants more than what he deserves.

Regards

 

[citygirl]

Actually, I do pay 3%. On Dec 1, I took out $700.36 USD (3000 pesos). I paid $21.01 in foreign fee. Which is, in fact, 3 percent. That is Citibank (And even though I use a Citibank here, it is not part of Citi NA so I pay the 3%, not 1%). Several others charge 3% as well. Some banks charge 1%.

The list of prices banks charge is as follows (plus the $5 USD that Argentine banks charge to use their ATM)


Bank of America BOA or partner ATM: $0 plus 1%* To use a Non-BOA ATM: $5 plus 1%

Citibank: Using Citi overseas: $0 plus 1% Non-Citi ATM: $2 plus 3%

J.P. Morgan Chase Chase ATM: $3 plus $3% Non Chase ATM: $3 plus 3%

HSBC: HSB ATM: $0 plus 3% Non-HSBC ATM: $1.50 plus 3%

Well's Fargo WF ATM: $5 plus 3% Non WF ATM: $5 plus 3%

PNC : PNC ATM: $3.50 plus 3.5% Non PNC ATM: $3.50 plus 3.5%

US Bank USB ATM: $2 plus 3% Non USB ATM: $2 plus 3%

SunTrust Bank: Sun Trust ATM: $5 plus 0% Non Sun Trust $5 plus 0%

BB&T Corp $5 plus 3% or non BBT ATM $5 plus 3%

Ally Bank 1% or 1%


Again, financially, if you're a tourist here for a short-term, it makes NO sense to pay fees to withdraw pesos here to pay for a rental apt. You have to deal with bank fees foreign ATM fees, the $5 fee that the ATMS here charge (unless you have Schwab or a premier account with some of the other banks). Oh yes and if your rent/deposit exceeds $1000 USD, you'll have to use more than one ATM card (assuming you have them) and pay two sets of fees in order to get the money.

Plus, then you get your security deposit back in pesos which means you're going to have to exchange it back to dollars (hope you saved the receipt ) which again, I don't know many people want to deal with on their last day of vacation.

If they're doing it because they feel more secure - okay then although I personally would feel a lot safer flying with 2000 USD in my pocket than having to go to a bank and take out 8400 pesos and walk around with that but whatever makes them happy. But financially it will cost them more money to take out pesos here as opposed to paying in dollars & they have to deal with the headache of then exchanging the pesos back to dollars when they leave.

AGain - this is refering to short-term, vacation rentals. For those who have a 6 month contract, I can understand them wanting to pay in pesos.

 

[scarface]

Actually, I do pay 3%. On Dec 1, I took out $700.36 USD (3000 pesos). I paid $21.01 in foreign fee. Which is, in fact, 3 percent. That is Citibank (And even though I use a Citibank here, it is not part of Citi NA so I pay the 3%, not 1%). Several others charge 3% as well. Some banks charge 1%.

Exactly. YOU pay 3%. Not everyone does. These days most travelers are fairly savvy about choosing institutions and using their cards to minimize fees. That you opt for a bank that charges 3% is your choice. It's not a strong argument that a lot of tourists/expats do. Tourists and especially longer term expats have control over and low cost options on ATM fees.
The rate of exchange you received on your 3000 pesos before fees was 4.283 just about midpoint between the official buy/sell rate, a pretty good rate and similar to the rate I received after the Banelco/Link fee of 17 pesos was recredited to my account. That's not even a 1% fee. It's 1/2 % off the higher "venta" rate and 1/2 % above the lower ''compra" rate. ATMS give a better rate of exchange than one could get trading dollars at a bank or casa de cambio.

Again, financially, if you're a tourist here for a short-term, it makes NO sense to pay fees to withdraw pesos here to pay for a rental apt. You have to deal with bank fees foreign ATM fees, the $5 fee that the ATMS here charge (unless you have Schwab or a premier account with some of the other banks). Oh yes and if your rent/deposit exceeds $1000 USD, you'll have to use more than one ATM card (assuming you have them) and pay two sets of fees in order to get the money.

You can repeat the same points over and over again and use all the CAPS you want, it's not going to make a weak argument stronger. The max amount one can withdraw in one day from local ATMs depends on one's daily limit with the card issuing institution. It's not necessarily $1000. Moreover, many tourists, especially longer term expats, have more than one debit card. If need be they can make withdrawls over a 2 or 3 day period. As noted above, fees are not necessarily an issue.

Plus, then you get your security deposit back in pesos which means you're going to have to exchange it back to dollars (hope you saved the receipt ) which again, I don't know many people want to deal with on their last day of vacation.

This is a valid point;however, the security deposit can be agreed upon to be paid in dollars and returned to the tenant in tact if there are no damage issues. That is currently the standard procedure.

If they're doing it because they feel more secure - okay then although I personally would feel a lot safer flying with 2000 USD in my pocket than having to go to a bank and take out 8400 pesos and walk around with that but whatever makes them happy.

From my reading of the travel forums tourists overwhemingly prefer not to travel and then go through airports with large amounts of cash on their person. Moreover, tourists don't casually "walk around" with large amounts of the pesos required to pay their rent. Typically, they are accompanied to the ATM by the landlord's agent, usually an employee of the RE agency who immediately pockets the cash. In any case, the run to and from a nearby ATM is a brief one in a safer environment.

But financially it will cost them more money to take out pesos here as opposed to paying in dollars & they have to deal with the headache of then exchanging the pesos back to dollars when they leave.

Wrong. See above. The critical point is that tourists and expats should have the option to pay in pesos. Those that want to use dollars can always do so.

AGain - this is refering to short-term, vacation rentals. For those who have a 6 month contract, I can understand them wanting to pay in pesos.

Amen.

 

[citygirl]

My bank along with many banks (see list above) charge 3%. ETA - That list is the 10 biggest banks so pretty representative for the US. Even at 1%, that's still $20 in fees on your 2000 withdrawal. Plus if your bank charges you for using a non-bank ATM (pretty standard in the US). Plus the charges that the argentine banks charge you. I'm curious to know what banks refund that fee - I don't know of any besides Schwab and HSBC premier and I *think* maybe a credit union.

Oh and please tell me how it is wrong that it will cost more to take out money here than bring it with you? Seriously, trying to figure out your math. Go to my bank in the US, take out 2000. Zero charge. Come here and take out money. Pay some level of conversion fee (be it 1% in best case) plus potentially other fees. Best case scenario - $20 for 1% with no fee from your bank for using non-bank ATM and getting the ARgentine fees credited back. (worst case $76 - 3% foreign fee + 10 in Argentine bank fees + $3 per non-bank transaction fee). Zero vs $20 or up to $76. Zero sure seems cheaper to me

No sane landlord would let a tenant into the apt without paying the full rent/deposit in advance. So yes, they will have to have that full amount in hand when they check in (be it dollars or pesos). My ATM limit is not 1000 USD - it's higher - but I have never found any ATM or bank that allows you to take out more than 1000 USD a day here (well, peso equivalent of $1000 USD), even when using a Citi.. In fact, Citi is the only one that is that high.

So please tell me the banks that do allow higher withdrawals - I think many people on here would like to know.

 

[scarface]

My bank along with many banks (see list above) charge 3%. ETA - That list is the 10 biggest banks so pretty representative for the US. Even at 1%, that's still $20 in fees on your 2000 withdrawal. Plus if your bank charges you for using a non-bank ATM (pretty standard in the US). Plus the charges that the argentine banks charge you. I'm curious to know what banks refund that fee - I don't know of any besides Schwab and HSBC premier and I *think* maybe a credit union.

Oh and please tell me how it is wrong that it will cost more to take out money here than bring it with you? Seriously, trying to figure out your math. Go to my bank in the US, take out 2000. Zero charge. Come here and take out money. Pay some level of conversion fee (be it 1% in best case) plus potentially other fees. Best case scenario - $20 for 1% with no fee from your bank for using non-bank ATM and getting the ARgentine fees credited back. (worst case $76 - 3% foreign fee + 10 in Argentine bank fees + $3 per non-bank transaction fee). Zero vs $20 or up to $76. Zero sure seems cheaper to me

Where did you get these % fees for use of an ATM card? On what base rate is the % fee deducted? Are you sure you are not publishing currency conversion fees imposed when the cardholder makes a foreign currency purchase?
The bottom line is that I got 4.29 final price using my ATM card. It happens to be from Fidelity, but there are many other institutions that recredit the local Banelco/Link $4 (17 peso) fee (Schwab, Cap One, HSBC Premier, and numerous credit associations). The 4.29 rate is a better rate than what local banks and casas de cambio offer for dollars.
Several of the large institutions on your list only charge "1%." I would be willing to bet that even if the local network fee is not recredited the bottom line ATM exchange rate (on a 1000 peso withdrawl) is not more than 1% off what one would get for dollars traded at a bank or casa de cambio. That's a small price to pay for the convenience.
The important point is that tourists and expats can control their fees and costs and if done smartly will be better off using an ATM than trading dollars after arriving (not to mention the hassle of lines).

No sane landlord would let a tenant into the apt without paying the full rent/deposit in advance. So yes, they will have to have that full amount in hand when they check in (be it dollars or pesos).

Who said otherwise?

My ATM limit is not 1000 USD - it's higher - but I have never found any ATM or bank that allows you to take out more than 1000 USD a day here (well, peso equivalent of $1000 USD), even when using a Citi.. In fact, Citi is the only one that is that high.

So please tell me the banks that do allow higher withdrawals - I think many people on here would like to know.

I confess. I don't have an answer to this question. I never tried getting more than US$ 1000 in pesos from local ATMs in one day. I never knew of this limit. Have you tried other banks to see if they would give you additional funds over the US$ 1000 you presumably withdrew from Citi?
I am not certain, but it seems to me one could withdraw the max (US1000) from a bank ATM in the Banelco system and then go to different bank in the Link system and obtain additional funds (up to US 1000) if , in fact, these systems have that limit.
Also, it was my understanding that one could get cash at a teller line using their plastic and get a decent rate of exchange. Is the US$ 1000 limit similarly applicable?
If your point about the US $1000 limit is right you may have a valid point for those arriving tourists who need more than US $1000 of pesos in a single day and who don't have more than one ATM card. Don't everyone raise their hands at once.

 

[TheBlackHand]

Many of the perma tourists who want to pay rent in Pesos are simply taking their Dollars and exchanging them at the unofficial rate, trying to pay the owner the official rate and then pocketing the difference. Pretty transparent motivation. The whole excuse for tourists not wanting to bring $ 2000 usd cash from the airport to the apartment because of the risk is pretty disingenuous and not very smart either as they would only have to go to an ATM, hope they can extract almost $ 9000 pesos in one day from a foreign ATM ( something that is impossible to do in Argentina ) and then walk around a city ( that they are admittedly afraid of carrying large sums of money in ) and carry a large sum of money to the apartment, instead of taking a licensed and bonded taxi straight from Ezeiza to their rental apartment. And that's not even including the damage deposit. Add to that the fact that they will most surely be paying national and international ATM fees, it simply makes no sense whatsoever.

These new money restriction laws will definitely change things in the short and long term rental business. Many owners will start pricing their apartments at an alternative Pesos rate that will be parallel to the unofficial rate and other owners will simply decide that short term rentals are too much of a hassle now that they won't be paid in Dollars, which is the only real incentive to rent to tourists short term.