Who are the future BAEXPATS?

[steveinbsas]

Recently there was a huge increase in the income requirement for the visa rentista and the dollar amount for the investor visa was also increased. The new decreto may put an end to perma-tourism and inflation and crime are greater concerns than ever. Retirees who don't have to have a specified level of income to qualify for the pensionado visa are still unlikely to find long term rentals sin la garantia. Even if they buy an apartment to live in, the monthly fees have been increasing at an alarming rate.

Though there have been a few recent posts here on the forum from businesses looking for individuals to work, some only want those who already have a DNI. I'm not sure if it is legal to hire a foreigner with a DNI to take any job that is offered without the employer being registered with migraciones, but even if it's possible to bypass migraciones there don't seem to be very many jobs that include pay and benefits attractive to most foreigners form North America, Australia, and Europe (unless on the job fruit twice a week is a major incentive).

I'm sure there will continue to be individuals (some with families) who are transferred to BA for work and some foreigners who will come as tourists for six months or less, but I wonder if the future "year round" population of expats in BA is going to shrink, perhaps significantly, in the future. I hope we will hear from those who are still considering "moving" here as well as those who have serious doubts regarding plans they may have been making for a number of months...if not years. Given recent events and trends, this has become a tougher decision to make than ever.

 

[Gringoboy]

I think one of the toughest decisions is whether to stay long term, speaking personally.
Having said that, it was no ride in the park getting perm res and dni and I think I speak for many when I say that.
But you ask a pertinent question Steve.
From my personal point of view, knowing people 'in the know' in Argentina (maybe even before you plan to arrive) is a must have requirement nowadays, especially when having to deal with Migraciones.

 

[MizzMarr]

I'm pretty sure that the Bohemian BA Expat days are over. For the most part any newcomers I see are either monied businesspeople or retirees who are considering moving here for a more economical alternate to the States (how realistic that is is debatable). I've been here for awhile and already see a lot of the creative populations dwindling, and am reconsidering staying here because of difficulties of conducting business.

 

[citygirl]

Well, I can say that a company has to be registered with migraciones in order to employee extranjeros (which is a painful process), if they're not registered, they can't legally employee an extranjero.

As regards to the rest, I think MizzMarr is quite right. The bohemian days started drawing to a close about a year ago when prices started increasing. Perma-tourist hype aside (whether or not it's still an option), I think the bigger issue is COL. If you're not coming down here with a job, you probably won't be able to stay that long.

Most expats I know who were creative types or IT types who had sporadic projects have left. Too expensive and not worth the headaches. So yes, I think you'll see more & more expats be businesspeople.

(Although in fairness, most of the creative and/or bohemian types I met in my first few years here weren't "real" expats. They were enjoying being here for a year or two but didn't ever have any intention of staying, putting down roots, starting a business, etc. So I think the increase in COL just expedited the departure but it probably would have happened anyway).

 

[earlyretirement]

This is a good topic. I totally agree with it. Really the days of the "bohemian" ex-pats moving here in droves is pretty much over. From my time living here, I've mostly avoided expats and had more interest in spending time with locals.

In the past, most ex-pats were people that lost jobs in the USA/Europe or abroad and Buenos Aires was a super cheap place to lay low for a while. Although some used learning Spanish as an excuse most that I've seen haven't bothered to learn Spanish. Many I'd hear just partied here or goof around.

Then you have another group that is assigned here with large companies, multi-national institutions, non-profit agencies where they get paid in dollars/euros. Also, you have the expat that can work over the internet/phone and make dollars/euros.

A very very very small percentage of Ex-Pats that come here to start a business are successful. I can probably count on one hand the # of Ex Pats that came to Argentina and really were successful. This is a terribly difficult country to make money in. It's inefficient, taxes are terribly high, tons of red tape, government is corrupt, a clear lack of separation of branches of government here, a non-functional banking system, yadda yadda yadda.

Most expats will go back to their home countries having blown much of their savings with not too many great job prospects.

Argentina is a great place for those with lots of money and savings, those that have pensions or social security payments in dollars/euros, etc. So for those people it's ok but the cost of living has really skyrocketed over the past few years.

Job prospects are severely limited for ex-pats and even if they can get a job they won't make a lot of money here. You have a very high educated base of young people that speak English and many of them studied abroad and they don't make a lot of money so they aren't going to pay some Ex Pat a lot.

I think this place is ideal if you have tons of savings, bought a place with cash and only have your expenses, utilities, etc. Utilities are still dirt cheap here compared to the USA/Europe. But things like groceries are not cheap here (and the quality of food is pretty poor), restaurants aren't that cheap. Healthcare insurance used to be cheap but with the inflation it's more expensive now.
Still much cheaper than the USA.

But even those with tons of savings it's more difficult because banks are paying basically almost nothing now. When I moved here banks were paying as high as 5% interest in high interest savings accounts. So if you had $1 million you were making $50,000 just off the interest. Now you're lucky if you get $15,000. The world is a different place.

Me personally I think if you have significant savings.....other first world countries can offer a much better quality of life. For many expats, BA has lust a bit of it's luster as it's more expensive.

For me it doesn't come down to finances at all. I'm going to move out of Argentina next year but it has nothing to do with finances or cost of living. It just comes down to plain old quality of life issues. It will be nice not standing in line 1 hour at the grocery store or the post office. Nice seeing people actually not cutting over 3 lanes to turn and obeying basic traffic laws. It will be nice to not see cars/buses with thick black soot blowing out of the exhaust. Nice not to have some protesters blocking a major street all because some politician bought them a sandwich and a coke to come and protest for their cause. Oh, and not having 25%-30% inflation a year to worry about won't be too bad either.

But I admit...I'll rally miss the full time maid and cook! That has been a great perk all these years.

 

[GuilleGee]

Well, I can say that a company has to be registered with migraciones in order to employee extranjeros (which is a painful process), if they're not registered, they can't legally employee an extranjero.

I would assume companies can hire spouses of Argentines and other foreigners with permanent residency without having to be registered. (Correct?)

So I guess that is my answer to the question, people with family and connections to Argentina will be the future year-round expats while other bohemian types and business people may just stop down for a while before moving on.

Of course, what do I know. I think Buenos Aires is an amazing city in a enormous and beautiful country, and I am sure that something will change in the next 5 years that will make us reconsider who will be the future expats.

 

[Rad]

I think that most of South America is turning worse for expats. I like to spend some time in Buenos Aires every winter, but I no longer consider Argentina as a place for permanent residency or business. The only business friendly country in South America is Chile. I can also get a higher quality of life in Spain where property prices are going down, roads are first world quality and the weather is just as good as in Argentina.

 

[earlyretirement]

I think that most of South America is turning worse for expats. I like to spend some time in Buenos Aires every winter, but I no longer consider Argentina as a place for permanent residency or business. The only business friendly country in South America is Chile. I can also get a higher quality of life in Spain where property prices are going down, roads are first world quality and the weather is just as good as in Argentina.

I agree. Really I think that more of the Ex Pat base in Buenos Aires will be people that are retiring and have pensions or social security payments. Because the truth of the matter is that many of these people just can't afford to live in the USA anymore. BA is still cheaper with many aspects than the USA including healthcare and medications.

But I think previously Expats found part of the "charm" of Buenos Aires was the very low cost of living. Really it's not that cheap anymore. Rental prices have really gone up over the years and if you really want to buy a great place in Recoleta or Palermo it's more expensive per sq. meter than most places in the USA, with the exception of some obvious cities like Manhattan.

I own a few 2 bedroom properties that are $250,000 US and for that you can buy a big house in many cities in the USA now. Heck even 1 bedroom places can be as much as $170,000 US which again you can buy a house in the USA in many cities for.

Brazil is becoming a powerhouse and more expensive, especially with the very weak dollar and poor exchange rate. Chile has a great business environment...but let's be honest.... well it's Chile... boring for my tastes.

Uruguay has a GREAT banking system and legal system and the health care system is great as well. But again it's boring. Every place has it's negatives. For me, Buenos Aires is still the absolute best city in South America to live for great quality of life, relatively safe, etc. But when it comes down to it and as Rad mentioned...you can have a much higher quality of life in first world countries vs. Argentina.

 

[gouchobob]

This is really a good question. My own opinion is that it is hard to pick one place and expect it to remain competitive from an expat standpoint. Exchange rates change, inflation can be high, a place that was good a couple of years ago may not be a couple of years later. Generally with the weak dollar most places have become less attractive for Americans. Will this remain the case, hard to say. 2 or 3 years from now the situation may change again. Hard to say in the case of Argentina, I doubt the high inflation rate will continue forever, will it get cheap again in the future, that's a question I don't think anybody can answer.

 

[fifs2]

Hopefully my children will be future expats and will come to this city once again full of culture, education and hope for better times. We came for business, we have been successful, to our detriment as the blackmail is now showing, but we will leave for Europe in the coming year with many many good friends and fond memories. We will also know why so so many people warned us about Argentina...it wasn´t a new Ireland, China or Mumbai. It has issues..lots more years of psychotherapy may help it get its head staright and be the continent success it deserves to be.