Who's For Whom ? Obama, Hillary, McCain

[Stanexpat]

Bigbadwolf,

A strong pro-Israel lobby certainly exists but to state as
fact that it exercises excessive influence over U.S.
foreign policy is certainly very controversial and open to dispute. There is
debate and many responsible people who do not agree with this thinking. One of
the people you quote as sharing similar ideas is the MIT professor Chomsky who
has been quoted that he did not find the thesis of the paper (The Israeli
Lobby) very convincing.




Your assertions that corporate America
depends on the government for it growth and very existence also seems to be off
the mark. If anything the decline of
many industries in the states would argue just the opposite. As an example look
at the auto industry, 30 years ago the big 3 makers controlled probably 90% of
the domestic market. Today I’m not sure of the percentage but it’s under 50%.
If what you say is true how could this happen?




I will agree that campaign contributions and how elections
are funded is a big problem. But is this a problem of corporate America
or incumbent politicians who benefit from the current system.




Your overall thesis seems to be the the U.S.
is some sort of sinister empire largely controlled by a conspiracy of Zionists
and corporate interests. This seems more than a little far fetched to me.

However, I’m always interested in other opinions. According to you all there is little
difference in 3 main candidates and as a result it really doesn’t make any
difference which one is elected. Well if that is the way you feel perhaps you
could enlighten us on what you would do to save the U.S.
from these dire circumstances?

 

[bigbadwolf]

A strong pro-Israel lobby certainly exists but to state as
fact that it exercises excessive influence over U.S.
foreign policy is certainly very controversial and open to dispute. There is
debate and many responsible people who do not agree with this thinking. One of
the people you quote as sharing similar ideas is the MIT professor Chomsky who
has been quoted that he did not find the thesis of the paper (The Israeli
Lobby) very convincing.

Opinions vary. Certainly there are other forces at play other than just the lobby. Incidentally, I refer to Chomsky as a Jewish person who takes a critical stance towards Israel, and not necessarily as one who outlook I (completely) share.

Your assertions that corporate America
depends on the government for it growth and very existence also seems to be off
the mark. If anything the decline of
many industries in the states would argue just the opposite. As an example look
at the auto industry, 30 years ago the big 3 makers controlled probably 90% of
the domestic market. Today I’m not sure of the percentage but it’s under 50%.
If what you say is true how could this happen?

I lost a lengthy reply to your post and I don't want to type extensively again. In brief, there has been increasing emphasis on finance and monopoly areas (such as pharma and software), and increasing investment abroad (particularly BRIC -- Brazil, Russia, China, India). For various reasons, US industrial companies aren't that great in competitive markets (mediocre management, high labor costs, and indifferent quality), and since US finance capital has won the tussle for influence vis-vis older industrial capital, that means unfettered markets and globalisation In particular, GM and Ford are having to compete with Toyota and Nissan, and losing.The US government acts as global enforcer, helps to bring about regulatory and remittance frameworks in client regimes, and guarantees intellectual property rights (where the monopoly profits of pharma, software, and entertainment come from). Even hitherto manufacturing companies like GE now derive over half their profit from financial services. And many US MNCs now derive the bulk of their revenues and profit from overseas. Another symptom of empire when MNCs act this way, and the US state acts as global enforcer.

Your overall thesis seems to be the the U.S.
is some sort of sinister empire largely controlled by a conspiracy of Zionists
and corporate interests. This seems more than a little far fetched to me.

Opinions vary. I'm not trying to persuade you; merely providing a bit of elaboration to my outlook.

Well if that is the way you feel perhaps you
could enlighten us on what you would do to save the U.S.
from these dire circumstances?

The situation is dire and getting dire with no light at the end of the tunnel. Gasoline at $4 a gallon and talk of it reaching $6 next year -- with no national energy policy since Carter. 3m industrial jobs lost just in the last eight years. An ongoing financial meltdown. Foreclosures between 7,000 and 8,000 daily. The dollar under sustained pressure. The media commentators try to put on a brave face but there's an ominous and pessimistic feel to things these days. What would I do? I'm not sure much can be done. The empire itself is at a certain stage, and further crises and dissolution seem almost inevitable a la the analyses of Toynbee and Spengler. So enjoy the ride.

 

[Stanexpat]

Bigbadwolf, thanks for the reply, lighten up, the world won't end for at least a week.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Bigbadwolf, thanks for the reply, lighten up, the world won't end for at least a week.

An industry expert was on MSNBC two days ago and talking of $12 a gallon for gasoline followed by rationing (as a consequence of peak oil). I won't be able to lug my 300-pound frame into my 12 mpg SUV for my 60-mile roundtrip commute. It is the end of the world for me. The USA needs strong leadership: leaders who will kick a$$ worldwide and ensure $1 a gallon gasoline: the American dream.

 

[Dudester]

....but BB WOLF, I thought I saw Georgie W. Jr. hit up the Saudi's last week for increased Oil production when he went over to visit Israel for their celebration, you can't say our fearless leader didn't give it his best shot - I mean, the man knows how to negotiate, you gotta give him that...... And, I must agree with Stan, the world has more than a week left, I'd give it about 10 days.......

 

[bigbadwolf]

I thought I saw Georgie W. Jr. hit up the Saudi's last week for increased Oil production when he went over to visit Israel for their celebration, you can't say our fearless leader didn't give it his best shot - I mean, the man knows how to negotiate, you gotta give him that.....

GWB comes in for a lot of flak, some of it, in my humble opinion, unjustified. He's merely a representative of an ossified political and social order, one incapable of real change. If there were real political opposition to Bush's political program, it wouldn't have been realised. The Democrats are fully complicit in tax breaks for the rich, in overseas invasions, and in domestic neglect; to expect them to be a real alternative to the present gang bespeaks of gross naivete. We should ask ourselves why political discourse is so sterile and lifeless in the USA; why the acceptable range of political opinions ranges from A to B. Perhaps John Pilger has it right:

What struck me, living and working in the United States, was that presidential campaigns were a parody, entertaining and often grotesque. They are a ritual danse macabre of flags, balloons and bullshit, designed to camouflage a venal system based on money power, human division and a culture of permanent war.

 

[windy]

I would reccomend that all americans read Armed Madhouse by Greg Pallast
Find out how many americans had there votes stolen or destroyed in 2000 how the number doubled by 2004 and what the republican party has in store for the american voters in the next election.

 

[Dudester]

Speaking about the "Pro Israeli Lobby" I have a pretty naive question connected to all of that. I happened to see McCain (Crazy, Super Angry Geezer running for President on the Republican side) speaking to AIPAC, the super pro Israel lobby in the USA, this morning on TV. Besides the fact that the camera's NEVER cut to any audience shots (which I found VERY bizarre - kind of like they're hiding or something) I also noticed that besides the very heavy ass kissing I felt like McCain was talking to members of America's 51st State. Can someone explain to me why the USA lets the Israeli Government do whatever it wants - be it right or wrong - and NEVER say one word? I really don't get why America is willing to start WWIII over this strip of land. I've been to Israel a few times and know that the internal polictics are the biggest mess in the world. You have your cool, liberal Jews (mainly Tel Aviv) that just want peace and have no problem mixing and hanging with the Arabs (Palestinians) and then you have the Nut Job Fanatics that think Israel should stretch to the Turkish/Iraq's borders or something. Why does the US Government seem to always side with the flipped out fanatics?

Now I get that they are an American ally and all that but often times the Israeli Government seems to be big trouble makers (and OVERLY aggressive like when it bombed all of Beirut and beyond a few years ago). The way they treat the Palestinians is DISGUSTING but yet the US just looks the other way. Jimmy Carter wrote that book about the treatment of the Palestinians ("PALESTINE: PEACE, NOT APARTHEID") and the press/media just jumped all over him in numerous interviews - it was very obvious and unpleasant. I understand that the media is controlled by a certain group but I'm surprised they have so much power. And, as I said before, this group goes all the way from super liberal to super conservative so what is the deal - there can't be that much passion and cash donated to the US politicians to get them to go along with ANYTHING so can someone explain it to me.

BTW, before I get labeled something silly like anti-semitic (oldest trick in the world) let me just say I can't stand any type of FANATIC, be they Jewish, Christian, or Muslim and am basically non-religious (brought up Catholic but no longer practiced) so that should pop the anti-semitic balloon, maybe. So can someone explain this whole phenomenon to me. I don't mind defending Israel at all costs, just put one more star on the flag (51 total) and have them pay Federal Taxes for military protection cause I just don't feel like having my tax money taken to protect a place half way around the world - they have their own very sophisticated weapons so why is the US so involved??? Hope someone can enlighten me (BBWOLF?) on some of this stuff - I'm 100% serious....... Dudester

 

[bigbadwolf]

Speaking about the "Pro Israeli Lobby" I have a pretty naive question connected to all of that. I happened to see McCain (Crazy, Super Angry Geezer running for President on the Republican side) speaking to AIPAC, the super pro Israel lobby in the USA, this morning on TV. Besides the fact that the camera's NEVER cut to any audience shots (which I found VERY bizarre - kind of like they're hiding or something) I also noticed that besides the very heavy ass kissing I felt like McCain was talking to members of America's 51st State. Can someone explain to me why the USA lets the Israeli Government do whatever it wants - be it right or wrong - and NEVER say one word? I really don't get why America is willing to start WWIII over this strip of land. I've been to Israel a few times and know that the internal polictics are the biggest mess in the world. You have your cool, liberal Jews (mainly Tel Aviv) that just want peace and have no problem mixing and hanging with the Arabs (Palestinians) and then you have the Nut Job Fanatics that think Israel should stretch to the Turkish/Iraq's borders or something. Why does the US Government seem to always side with the flipped out fanatics?

There's actually more dissent and open discussion in Israel about Israeli and Palestininan problems than there is about the same issues in the USA, where the thought police are out in full force. The ultimate farce was when two (Jewish) professors at Haifa University in Israel were called "anti-semitic" by the ADL (Anti-Defamation League, in the USA). Or look at poor Norman Finkelstein, an American Jewish academic, who writes critically about Israel and Zionism (and was deported from Israel just a week back, almost immediately after landing there), who's been refused a tenured academic job in the US.
There is an influential Zionist lobby in the United States. This lobby has at its disposal legal, diplomatic, mass media, and financial resources. Besides this, US policy in the Middle East echoes previous British policy: support corrupt local potentates (the Sauds, the Sabahs, etc.) plus use Israel (Jewish presence in Palestine, at the time of British influence) as backup. Present neo-con policy -- just an extension of earlier US foreign policy in the region -- is to have Israel as uncontested regional hegemon. It's difficult to know whether the dog wags the tail or the other way around. Financial and military interests of the two countries are closely tied together ( for more on the financial, see Nitzan and Bichler's The Global Political Economy of Israel).
Before 1967, USA was neutral towards Israel, and indeed, in 1948, US poliymakers didn't think Israel could survive as a sovereign state. But during the last few decades, it's been a "pact of steel."
The key problem is that in a profoundly undemocratic state like the US, all real decisions are made behind closed doors: there is really no open and public discussion about foreign, economic, environmental, or educational policy (beyond sloganeering and the media circus). The level of political and media discourse is so impoverished as to beggar belief. The public exists only to rubberstamp whatever narrow choice of scoundrels is made available to it (I consider McCain, Obama, and Clinton to be equally the scum of the earth).
Postscript: An interesting analysis of John McCain here.

 

[rmartinbuenosaires]

Dudester: On THIS topic, I agree with you 100%. I have always wondered the exact same thing(s) about Israel. They run wild with our consent. They are STILL building settlements on the West Bank. It really is no wonder that the Arab states and Palestine are against them. It is tragic on both sides when innocent lives are lost though. Israel is the biggest recipient of U.S. foreign aid in the world. George Bush, Sr. tried to tackle this during his administration and was met with such backlash from various Pro-Israeli organizations in the U.S. that he had to back down from his more stern approach. Sad.