Why do you choose Argentina?

[Ries]

Bingo!

I have friends who came to Buenos Aires from Columbia, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Mexico, who dont have dollars. They have started businesses, and are doing just fine. I know a US guy who started a record company, and ten years later, is still going strong- when nobody in the US makes any money releasing music. Argentina is, curiously enough, considered a land of opportunity for a lot of people. People who dont have dollars, and still live better, and are able to get paid to do creative work.

As for food service jobs- they are, unfortunately, careers for many many people. The service industries have been growing like crazy in the US, while good paying jobs, Union jobs, have vanished every year for my entire life (I am 65). My son is fine- he moved to NYC, which is even more expensive than Seattle, and he hustles, shares housing, and does creative work. Just like the people I know who move to BA.

Who would want to live in Texas? The "coastals", like California, say, which is the 5th biggest economy in the world, are, indeed, expensive, but you can get better paying jobs there too.

The Average price of a house in the USA today is $400,000 USD. That the NATIONWIDE average price. Prices in most major cities are much more.
The myth that there is some cheap place to live in the US is just that- a myth. The cheapest spots have terrible unemployment, horrible opiod drug problems, high poverty and terrible health care and schools. When kids turn 18, they leave. Whole swaths of the rural US have no grocery stores, no doctors, and people drive 2 hours to shop, as the populations drop. But rent is cheap there.

 

[Dougie]

You have very impressive friends who have come from places like Venezuela without dollars and end up having successful businesses in Argentina.

Buenos Aires has great aspects, some better than the US. I think most of us here are in agreement that the US is not a land of milk and honey, and Argentina isn't a post apocalyptic wasteland.

But, do we really believe there is more economic opportunity for the average person in Argentina than the US?

 

[Ries]

You have very impressive friends who have come from places like Venezuela without dollars and end up having successful businesses in Argentina.

Buenos Aires has great aspects, some better than the US. I think most of us here are in agreement that the US is not a land of milk and honey, and Argentina isn't a post apocalyptic wasteland.

But, do we really believe there is more economic opportunity for the average person in Argentina than the US?

I dont know any average people. I dont really believe they exist. I know poor people without much education, for example, and I think they are better off in a country where they can have a free college education, and free healthcare.

I think in either country, if you are born with money, with parents who help you buy an apartment, you can do great.

I know that the homeless people in the US pick thru garbage cans, and are often sick and addicted to drugs, with mental problems, while the Cartoneros in BA have Unions, health care, and cooperation with the city government to benefit both the Cartoneros and the city. Plus you can build your own house in a villa, with no building permits or mortgage. Try that in the US. Tent city, baby.

I know which I would pick.

I once stumbled upon a streetcorner asado being put on by the king of cartoneros, about ten years ago, and he was a lot healthier and more cogent than the average homeless person in LA or NYC.

I wonder how recently some of you have lived in the US, because some of what I see described is what it was like 40 years ago, but not what its like now.

 

[antipodean]

I have friends who came to Buenos Aires from Columbia, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Mexico, who dont have dollars. They have started businesses, and are doing just fine.

They did have dollars - or at least pesos that are convertible to dollars and didn’t evaporate faster than they could be saved. All Venezuelans I know also arrived here with dollars that they saved under their mattresses or sold everything they had to get. The ones that didn’t rarely get further than Colombia.

A good average salary here today is $80k per month or less. Average rent in an average neighborhood in CABA is now like $35k per month. Expensas $10k per month. Electricity $3k per month. Internet $3k per month. A main dish at an average restaurant a little less than $1k and a bottle of water over $100.
To purchase a basic laptop it’s starting around $50.000. To buy a new basic car $1.000.000+ While to purchase a basic apartment $22.500.000+.
Cost of consumer borrowing 78%. Cost of savings almost 50%. How does the average person even think of getting ahead without first having some kind of head start?

Life is only cheaper here if you look at it through foreign or privileged eyes.

A crappy life here is just a different kind of crappy life to there. Drugs may be different. Housing structures may be different. Mental health may be different. Rights may be different. But hungry and hopeless is still hungry and hopeless no matter what way one spins it.

 

[Dougie]

I dont know any average people. I dont really believe they exist.

The average Venezuelan is driving Uber 12 hours a day, making $200 pesos p/h, living with 5 other Venezuelans in a run down house in Quilmes. They don't have the money or access to credit to start a business. They exist.

 

[Wade K.]

Because you know everything about the USA? All 50 states, all 330 million people?

I've lived and traveled all over the U.S. There is some poverty, but there's a social safety net too. No one has to go hungry in the U.S. if they don't want to. But don't worry, the U.S. economy is on a precipice. Could very well look like Argentina's distant cousin soon.

 

[Wade K.]

I have friends who came to Buenos Aires from Columbia, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Mexico, who dont have dollars. They have started businesses, and are doing just fine. I know a US guy who started a record company, and ten years later, is still going strong- when nobody in the US makes any money releasing music. Argentina is, curiously enough, considered a land of opportunity for a lot of people. People who dont have dollars, and still live better, and are able to get paid to do creative work.

As for food service jobs- they are, unfortunately, careers for many many people. The service industries have been growing like crazy in the US, while good paying jobs, Union jobs, have vanished every year for my entire life (I am 65). My son is fine- he moved to NYC, which is even more expensive than Seattle, and he hustles, shares housing, and does creative work. Just like the people I know who move to BA.

Who would want to live in Texas? The "coastals", like California, say, which is the 5th biggest economy in the world, are, indeed, expensive, but you can get better paying jobs there too.

The Average price of a house in the USA today is $400,000 USD. That the NATIONWIDE average price. Prices in most major cities are much more.
The myth that there is some cheap place to live in the US is just that- a myth. The cheapest spots have terrible unemployment, horrible opiod drug problems, high poverty and terrible health care and schools. When kids turn 18, they leave. Whole swaths of the rural US have no grocery stores, no doctors, and people drive 2 hours to shop, as the populations drop. But rent is cheap there.

"Whole swaths of the rural U.S. have no grocery stores...." Where would that be exactly? I would challenge you to show me any town of at least a couple thousand that doesn't have a grocery store unless it's close to a bigger town. We live in Overland Park, KS, a nice suburb of Kansas City, MO. Bought our house for $105k, now valued at $160k. Safe area, large yards, lots of shade, close to shopping, built in 1958. Average is just that, average. A lot of high end homes bring average prices up.

 

[Greg S]

Homelessness is a sad condition, no doubt. And I have never been down and out, so I really can't relate to it, but it seems to me that what happened to that Starbucks location is foolishness. There is no way the location should have hosted these poor people at the expense of their customers not patronizing the location. (Some liberal crap idea I guess????????????????

All Starbucks in the USA are required to let homeless, drug addicts, beggars, sit in their cafes and use their bathrooms without making a purchase. Homelessness, crime, disease, racism flourish in the USA. So consider that before complaining endlessly about Buenos Aires.

 

[Greg S]

I've lived and traveled all over the U.S. There is some poverty, but there's a social safety net too. No one has to go hungry in the U.S. if they don't want to. But don't worry, the U.S. economy is on a precipice. Could very well look like Argentina's distant cousin soon.

This simply is not true. It's part of the USA mythology. But, believe the fantasy.

 

[Redpossum]

I've lived and traveled all over the U.S. There is some poverty, but there's a social safety net too. No one has to go hungry in the U.S. if they don't want to. But don't worry, the U.S. economy is on a precipice. Could very well look like Argentina's distant cousin soon.

Oh, this is stinky bull droppings. Food stamps is only 200 USD per month, and you can lose your benefits at any time for any reason or no reason at all. You don't even get any warning; just the 1st of the month rolls around and you got nothing. You go to the office and they tell you, "oh yeah, your benefits were canceled because (insert any of 3 dozen arcane bureaucratic excuses)"

For two whole years I was on SNAP (aka food stamps). I know exactly what I'm talking about. When was the last time you depended upon "Public Assistance" to eat? No, I'm not proud of it. Truth be told, I am ashamed to admit I was that far down and out for that long. I am terrified by the thought of being that hopeless again. I'd almost rather die first.

Social safety net, my hairy ***. People say things like this and it just makes me too angry for words.