Why don't Portenos know the words "I'm sorry"

[steveinbsas]

I find the porteños almost always apologetic when they bump into me when suddenly changing direction on the sidewalk or stepping out of a building in front of me (usually without looking) and are rarely rude--period. Of course they never say "I'm sorry" but almost always say "o, he perdon" or disculpame. Perhaps it's because I always speak Castellano in the street...and immediately say "o, he perdon" regardless of who is "responsible" for the unintentional contact. Good manners are usually returned in kind. Some of my Argentine friends do indeed raise their voices to their friends and other member of their families when they are in disagreement or making a point. No one ever takes offense and no one runs to their computer to post a complaint.

 

[G]

R U sure you are in Buenos Aires? That is over selling that "apologetic" thing quite a bit isn't it?

 

[perry]

Portenos are polite and do have good manners especially to tourists. If you ask anyone for directions here 99 percent will give you a helping hand. Saying Sorry or Thank you is not a Argentine custom and does not in any way denote that they are not apologetic it means that the Culture is different.
I beleive many are trying to impose their cultures here and this will never work as this is Argentina with its own ideas and personality .

 

[masalsur]

I'd like to turn the conversation back to the kinds of things that I have experienced and could hardly believe were happening to me. Saying "disculpeme" or "permiso" when you've stepped on someone's foot and they are glaring at you is one thing, but not showing up at a dinner party with no sign of explanation is quite another.

To add to my growing list of can't believes, last night I had a Christmas dinner party. It was the 25th so the guests were generally available. Seven of the eight guests arrived on time and we had a wonderful evening. But the one person who did not show up, who had confirmed twice that he was coming, and who had invited three of the people who did show up -- people I didn't even know! -- simply did not come, and has not, as of 11:45 tonight, returned any of my calls.

I want to stay on the topic of keeping appointmetns. This guy is the MOST polite person I know when it comes to the automatic things; after coming to my house about 20 times he still says "Permiso" if he wants to come into the kitchen while I'm making coffer. But I've seen him pull these other tricks before.

And to get at whether this is acceptable here in Buenos Aires, his friends didn't think it odd that he didn't show up. Luckily they knew one other person at the party, or they would have been here in a stranger's house.

That is what I'm trying to get at. Is it really the case that a significant proportion of people here think that it is acceptable to accept an invitation that requires some effort on the part of the host, and simply not show up?

I can't think of anything like this ever happening in Canada, France, Spain, Switzerland, Mexico, Honduras, Gutemala, England, Germany, or any other place I've lived.

It has to mean that this is not considered to be poor manners. Yet how can it be that when you don't show up for a meal that you invited others to, or when you don't show up for a meal that you asked for (as in my original post), there is no need to call to apologize, no need to mention it the next time we meet, and so on?

I know all about cultural relativism, but I can't think of a culture where making someone host strangers because you didn't show up, or asking for a meal (already a bit odd) and not showing up, or, as I said the first time, doing the latter and insisting that you would be there in 30 minutes and STILL not showing up, could be considered anything but rude. This has happened too often, and with too many people from too many walks of life, for me to believe that it is just bad luck in my choice of friends and colleagues.

masalsur

 

[SaltShaker]

Not to defend the "not showing up" behavior, but it's not unique to porteños. Being someone who runs a business here, a restaurant, I get to experience the "showing up" behavior of lots of cultures, and I find the worst, to date anyway, have been my former fellow New Yorkers. It's very common in the restaurant world in NYC to have people not show up for reservations (yes, I realize this is a business situation and not a social one, but bear with me) - it's considered "perfectly acceptable" there to make reservations at multiple restaurants and then decide at last minute which one to go to, and not bother to notify the other places. I dealt with it for 20+ years there, and for the last 2 years here - they do the same thing, and they're unapologetic when you contact them - "it's just the way things are done". I'd bet most porteños wouldn't find that acceptable if they observed it while staying in NYC. Every culture has its weird foibles and things that drive people from other cultures nuts. The not showing up or showing up very late at social events is something I've experienced in Italy as well, especially in Rome, and it used to drive me crazy there until I realized it's just an accepted part of the culture.

 

[markus]

Portenos are polite and do have good manners especially to tourists. If you ask anyone for directions here 99 percent will give you a helping hand. Saying Sorry or Thank you is not a Argentine custom and does not in any way denote that they are not apologetic it means that the Culture is different.
I beleive many are trying to impose their cultures here and this will never work as this is Argentina with its own ideas and personality .

I have traveled all over Europe and the US and nobody has ever refused to give me directions. I guess Argentines are not so special after all... Most people I've come across in other countries have always been helpful. But that alone does not indicate that they are polite, though. There's much more to politeness than just giving directions you know...
As for Argentines being apologetic, you couldn't be further from the truth. If apologizing is not an Argentine custom, how can they possibly be apologetic? Looks like you don't know the meaning of the word...
Apologetic: 1. expressing apology or contrition for something
http://encarta.msn.com/apologetic.html
To express anything, one has to SAY something. God gave us the power of speech for a reason, right?
I'm sorry to dissapoint you but no country has ONE personality. Luckily, each one of them has different people with different personalities. We are humans not sheep... As I said before, most argentines are rude and inconsiderate but then again some of them realize this and dislike it. Not all argentines have the same personality, just the majority.
The fact that it is their "culture" to not show up for appointments and not apologize doesn't justify it. Many past societies have included acts of barbarism as part of their culture, however, claiming that those acts should be permitted to occur simply because they are part of one's culture is hardly sufficient reason to allow their continuation. Argentines possess the intelligence to understand that one's ancestral history of this behavior does not give permission for descendants to engage in it. They are modern human beings and as such, they should understand that not showing up and not apologizing is wrong and no longer acceptable. People who state that it is their "culture" that causes them to behave that way do so only to cover the facts. There is no sane reason for the continuation of these habits, thus it makes no sense to justify them.
We cannot excuse bad behavior simply by labeling it as part of our culture, we must use intelligent thought to determine what parts of our culture need to exist only in the past and those that have a place in present day when our knowledge of humanity and decency has evolved to a higher level and we are no longer slaves to ignorance.
Allowing one nation to use "culture" as an excuse for causing harm or inconvenience to others is possibly the most dangerous route the world can travel. The natives could come to believe that these are just mere acts of normalcy that have been performed by their countrymen for many generations. If a nation wishes to join the civilized world, it is necessary to reject incivility in all its forms.
If rudeness, inconsideration, etc are allowed to flourish in argentine society, then argentines live with a culture of ignorance and selfishness and their society is a primitive, uncivilized one.
STOP DEFENDING THE UNDEFENDABLE

 

[steveinbsas]

This is just one example of many topics in the forums that I think MrBart and others preparing for their first visit (aka "moving" here) might find informative. Archival posts in the "expat life" forum provide a wealth of information...and opinions.

 

[kappra]

I think it is very dangerous to generalize about a very large and diverse group of peole such as portenos (and I know I am mis-spelling it but have not figured out how to make Spanish letters and accents on my computer yet). We all tend to see the world through our own cultural lenses, which is natural, but we do need to be careful when we are in another culture that our lenses do not cloud the way we see things. Expecting an apology is a US American thing. In some cultures apologies might never be given. In others, like Japan, apologies are given for everything, including things that are not one's fault. Yet, if you invite a Japanese person to dinner and they do not want to attend, they will not say no directly, they will indicate in some way that they are not interested, but for those who are unaware of the signals, they may read it as accepting the invitation and be disappointed when the person does not show. Some of the complaints on here may be about individual behaviors, which is something we can find in any cultural group. Would the actions of one US American justify a blanket judgement of all people living in the US, or even a large American city like New York or Chicago. I know it gets frustrating when dealing with people who have very different ways of behaving, but using terms like "arrogant" to describe a different set of cultural values, behaviors, etc., is kind of arrogant itself, don't you think?

 

[steveinbsas]

I...have not figured out how to make Spanish letters and accents on my computer yet.

Just copy and paste the desired letter or word from other posts: e.g. porteños

 

[tangobob]

I...have not figured out how to make Spanish letters and accents on my computer yet.



Just copy and paste the desired letter or word from other posts: e.g. porteños

I sent this in a private note , I thought others already knew, so I will post it again here:-
Try Holding down the "alt" key and typing on the number pad:-

160 á /161 í /162 ó /163 ú /164 ñ
168 ¿ /130 é /167 º /
Look up askii characters on the web for all the others