With Less Than 2 Weeks Until The Elections ...

[Matiasba]

You guys are probably missing something. This forum is missig something. The people, "el soberano" as Sarmiento called it, can perfectly be wrong once or twice, but more than that? See, there should be some kind of erosion after 12 years of governing "without democratic principles". Furthermore, you can extrapolate this to any south american country with progresist government: Bolivia, Uruguay, Brazil, Ecuador, Venezuela, Argentina, whatever you want, and you wont find a presidential election lost by these governments. That must mean something. And all these continued great support by the people in its elections, accompanied with great changes in social indicators, getting people out of poverty, as never before, improving in almost every area, good economic growth, social planning, etc.

Thats the main feature of all this "progresistas" governments, growth with inclusion. And this good change did not come from policies friendly towards the US, but the exact contrary, confronting them, with associations between the countries, with protectionism, all together.

So, to sum up, there are lots of people supporting the Ks. Thats what you cant see. And not once, in 2003, but in 2007, then in 2011 and then in 2015. They must been doing something right.

 

[mikic007]

@98000

Populism is always right choice for crowds, until it fails in basic principles and everyone else is guilty, but people and government..

 

[Redbeanz]

So, to sum up, there are lots of people supporting the Ks. Thats what you cant see. And not once, in 2003, but in 2007, then in 2011 and then in 2015. They must been doing something right.

Mattias, there is absolutely no question that these govts have been doing something right: something right for their supporters, but not necessarily for the country. Don't you see that the middle class is finding it increasingly hard to make ends meet? Even you have gone to Mexico, where you can make a better living. What is a legitimate defense for a government that has so failed its people -- except for the people who, kept happy, can be counted on to keep the same group in office?

 

[Matiasba]

Mattias, there is absolutely no question that these govts have been doing something right: something right for their supporters, but not necessarily for the country. Don't you see that the middle class is finding it increasingly hard to make ends meet? Even you have gone to Mexico, where you can make a better living. What is a legitimate defense for a government that has so failed its people -- except for the people who, kept happy, can be counted on to keep the same group in office?

The thing is, that their supporters, the people who benefits from their policies, it seems are the majority. And this is everything concerning a democracy. Yes, minorities have rights, but I dont think the Ks did not respect minorities. In fact, one could argue than the great majority of K supporters is composed by different minorities, for example, gay people who now thanks to Ks can get married, or retired people who did not recieve nothing and now have one or two jubilaciones. And I can go on and on. I recommend you read Tocqueville and the rights of the minorities; but sadly, you just cant govern to everybody, thats the tragedy of democracy, so, democracy always means the tyranny of the majority. And thats how the Ks can stay in power, with the majority of people supporting them.

 

[ElQueso]

If you believe the government, they are doing wonderful and have increased everything since they took office.

If you take a walk around the country and see how a lot of people are living, you have to wonder - why in the hell are there so many poor people in a country that is not overpopulated and has bountiful resources? Then you have to talk to many, many, many people who say "why is my peso buying less and less and why does my salary not keep up with inflation?". Then you also have to ask why does the government employ such a large portion of the population? Then you have to ask yourself who benefits from being an employee of the government? The answer is quite simple. Oh yeah, most of those positions that were added are cronies, er, supporters of the government.

Democracy is a means of choosing leaders. It's not an economic principle. Democracy is a (very) fallible (as are all things human) way to try to get everyone a voice. Unfortunately, democracy can be perverted just like any other form of (human) government, particularly when the pieces of a "democratic" government aren't properly separated and are controlled by one person or party.

Counting Matias, you never ask any of the questions I posit and you take the very first statement in my post as fact. That's what you are missing. What we are missing is understanding why you continuously fail to realize this as many times as you have read various posts on the subject here.

When the majority of the people have a lifestyle similar to that of many people in Recoleta (a decent place to live, enough work to provide that place to live, ease of finding places for their kids to go live, etc), then Argentina will be doing good. No matter how you get there, no matter what government, no matter what economics. Unfortunately, Argentina is so far from that that it remains a "developing" nation. How the hell long are you guys going to keep trying to develop in the same manner and continue to fail before you, as a people, decide that you are doing the "development" incorrectly?

I've lived here for more than 9 years now. I have seen significant erosion since I came here in 2006. It's all around, one just has to look for oneself and not believe what the government says to see it. You are blind to reality, as are most of your fellow countrymen, and will be doomed to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and over again because you all are missing something.

 

[scotttswan]

I've lived here for more than 9 years now. I have seen significant erosion since I came here in 2006. It's all around, one just has to look for oneself and not believe what the government says to see it. You are blind to reality, as are most of your fellow countrymen, and will be doomed to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and over again because you all are missing something.

He's not blind, he lives in Mexico and can't look around.

 

[JoeGillis]

If you believe the government, they are doing wonderful and have increased everything since they took office.

If you take a walk around the country and see how a lot of people are living, you have to wonder - why in the hell are there so many poor people in a country that is not overpopulated and has bountiful resources? Then you have to talk to many, many, many people who say "why is my peso buying less and less and why does my salary not keep up with inflation?". Then you also have to ask why does the government employ such a large portion of the population? Then you have to ask yourself who benefits from being an employee of the government? The answer is quite simple. Oh yeah, most of those positions that were added are cronies, er, supporters of the government.

Democracy is a means of choosing leaders. It's not an economic principle. Democracy is a (very) fallible (as are all things human) way to try to get everyone a voice. Unfortunately, democracy can be perverted just like any other form of (human) government, particularly when the pieces of a "democratic" government aren't properly separated and are controlled by one person or party.

Counting Matias, you never ask any of the questions I posit and you take the very first statement in my post as fact. That's what you are missing. What we are missing is understanding why you continuously fail to realize this as many times as you have read various posts on the subject here.

When the majority of the people have a lifestyle similar to that of many people in Recoleta (a decent place to live, enough work to provide that place to live, ease of finding places for their kids to go live, etc), then Argentina will be doing good. No matter how you get there, no matter what government, no matter what economics. Unfortunately, Argentina is so far from that that it remains a "developing" nation. How the hell long are you guys going to keep trying to develop in the same manner and continue to fail before you, as a people, decide that you are doing the "development" incorrectly?

I've lived here for more than 9 years now. I have seen significant erosion since I came here in 2006. It's all around, one just has to look for oneself and not believe what the government says to see it. You are blind to reality, as are most of your fellow countrymen, and will be doomed to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and over again because you all are missing something.

My views exactly. The mere fact that there are approximately 3.75 million public sector employees, in a country of 41 million, is outrageous enough. Cronyism and nepotism reign supreme. Believe me, I know a fair number of public sector employees here, and they are earning fantastic salaries, far above the norm for similar or identical work in the private sector.

 

[mikic007]

@ElQueso

Uh, no one is right to be that right! Amen.

 

[ElQueso]

He's not blind, he lives in Mexico and can't look around.

Yeah, he's been touting the party line for so long (years, in fact, and while denying that he liked K politics, at least at first), that I forgot he no longer even lives here. Much easier to believe the lies of the government and defend them when 1) you were already a believer and 2) you aren't even in the same country to prove the veracity of your champions' statements!

Who is missing what again? Heh.

 

[Matiasba]

ok, so if the country is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad, and theres hunger and poverty and insecurity and everything sooooooo far of Recoleta, please oh please explain me why, kirchnerismo is so successfull, especially in the middle class, educated people.

if things were as wrong as you guys say, there would be descontent, and not a 60% of positive image after 12 years of governing. If the country was that bad, which I can refute with numbers, Kirchnerismo could not have win so many presidential elections. Theres the mood you know, there are revolts, or repression, theres that ethereal thing that makes a government change, even dictatorships, even monarchies, like Ghandi did, or the King of Spain resignation last year. Thats the social mood.

In argentina, theres no social mood of change. Ergo, things arent that bad. The rich want another government. They are a minority.

Does anyone else see the incongruence of the country that El Queso (et al.) draws and the (not INDEC) social indicators and the political polls (of this election, quite an indicator we can say, people vote with the pocket, people vote concerning their economic situation, or the image of Cristina)?

ps: I don t know where are you from, but if you are from the US, I really doubt people live there like in Recoleta, so that is also "developing".