World Justice Project--La Nacion--Corruption, Etc

[Caliexpat]

So you did not post this?

as an answer to my post

Israel was not an invention of the US, it was as I documented, the United Nations General Assembly, which recommended the adoption and implementation of the partition plan of Mandatory Palestine.

The Soviet Union and the United States were the first two countries to recognize the State of Israel.

This brings the Soviet Union into the debate, because the Soviet Union was a party to the creation of Israel, together with the majority of the United Nations General Assembly.

We seem to be going in circles here. You were trying to infer that I somehow was linking the Soviet Union with the US or Britain, not sure.

I also never literally said that Israel was a creation of the US. You seem to be stuck on this point. My attempt was to posit the theory that perhaps something can be done publically for one reason but that a hidden agenda is the real motivation for doing so, especially on the international stage by nation state actors.

Anyway, I'll go back to my previous post. Nothing you have said refutes the clash of civilizations theory. Again, the two are not mutually exclusive. Did you even read the articles?

 

[Jaredberryman]

I give you an example. You take the budget for public health and public education from Argentina in 2008. You multiplied for two. Result: the total amount Argentina pais of INTERESTS (not debt, only interests) in that year.
See, this is how they act. This is the same situation we currently have in Sapin or Greece. Taking money from one sector (the people who use public health and education) and give it to banks, IMF, etc.

The people who have money want to lend it, want the poor countries to take debt, so they can win with interests.

So the indebtment this government has made, reducing debt from 170% GDP to only 42% might have touched some interests. If Massa gets elected and take debt again, cause thats what he promissed to this people -an exchange for support- it is the peoples fault for voting him, the embassys fault for supporting him and his fault for taking debt.

So this is how external actors operate in Argentina. They just simply dont care if people live well, they just want their money, which they get by lobbying and puting presure in other fields, and go. Argentina paid something like 173 billion of interests in the last 10 years. Just imagine that money into public health and education.
So dont tell me that this people dont have fault of Argentinas present. They literally broke the country back in 2001, by pure especulation and puting presure. That consist how this people make their money, by speculation, putting presure, lobby, and we re not talking of small money but the budget of a country.

First, you are confusing global rich fat cat bankers with the U.S. government. The two interests certainly do NOT always coincide. True, they are deeply intertwined and in bed together. But these same people are actually enemies of the United States public at large as well, not just Argentina. If they could, they would strap their own countrymen with massive debts (and in some cases have already managed to do that).

But my question is this: who voted for the politicians that would be willing to borrow all that money and spend it irresponsibly? THEY did not break the country in 2001. The stupid politicians who were voted into power who borrowed that money let that happen. These politicians (like Menem) did not protect their people. Guess what? The majority of Argentines voted these people in. So where does the blame really fall?

 

[Jaredberryman]

Very complex subject. Interesting. Nutshell after 15 years of "dealing with these people (Argentines): Few people want to take personal responsibility about much in business, government, relationships, etc. It is usually someone else's fault. Very immature on many levels. A young democracy sure but you have to start (responsibility) somewhere for God's sake.

Some people are wise and do recognize that the problems in their nation are actually their own responsibility. But my experience after having lived here for almost 9 years now is that when their is a problem, it is almost always someone else's fault. Maybe it's a Porteno thing, but I doubt it. Whenever someone does something stupid, whether it's an individual, business, group, or government, someone else was responsible. I don't think that's immature thinking on my part, and it is a generalization, but mostly, I think it's true. It happens to me every single day. Someone screws up, and inevitably, they blame it on someone else. This is not unique to Argentina, but, in my humble opinion, I think it's over the top here.

 

[Matiasba]

First, you are confusing global rich fat cat bankers with the U.S. government. The two interests certainly do NOT always coincide. True, they are deeply intertwined and in bed together. But these same people are actually enemies of the United States public at large as well, not just Argentina. If they could, they would strap their own countrymen with massive debts (and in some cases have already managed to do that).

But my question is this: who voted for the politicians that would be willing to borrow all that money and spend it irresponsibly? THEY did not break the country in 2001. The stupid politicians who were voted into power who borrowed that money let that happen. These politicians (like Menem) did not protect their people. Guess what? The majority of Argentines voted these people in. So where does the blame really fall?

Look, the thing is, that it doesnt matter which politician is in charge. it doesnt matter who politician the people have chosen, it doesnt matter if its left or right, if is pro-corporation or anti. Look at the example of Spain, started with Rodriguez Zapatero and continued with Rajoy. Look at France, the recent measures they took the last week or two, they are doing the same as Sarkozy. The same that happens for example when it comes to the US and wars, it doesnt matter if its Bush or Obama. The thing is, that they are beyond the peoples choice. They are above politicians. They, the people who rule the world, who make changes in countries, who make ajustes, who put (a lot of) pressure to governments of any kind, they always win. One sociologist and journalist I often hear said that, trying to describe the situation in Europe, there were two big blocks facing each other, The France-Germany axis, trying to keep the Walfare State in Europe, versus the England-US axis, trying to get as much money as they wanted from those countries (like they did here in 2001). Finally the US-England axis prevailed and this huge quantity of money was and still is transferred from social plans, health and education to the most concentrated capitals in the world.

So, to sum up, this people are above peoples will, above thier choices of politicians, above left or right, above any political power. So its pretty much more theirs fault than peoples fault. In the same example with the US and war, I cant blame american people of being constantly in war, cause I know that its not their fault but the military industrial complex fault, which is above the common people and their political representation.