Zelensky Is Working on Joint Weapons Production with Argentina

[chris]

...what...? A democratic country was invaded by an authoritarian regime and you are calling the invaded country's leader a tyrant? Wow.
This Russian appeasement is dangerous and has never worked in the recent or distant history.

Russia shouldn't have invaded but Ukraine was and is far from democratic or transparent.

 

[Redpossum]

Argentina neutral? Remember when Argentina joined valiantly the Allied forces and declared war on Germany Japan in March 1945??

Yes, exactly. What's your point, please?

 

[Redpossum]

...what...? A democratic country was invaded by an authoritarian regime and you are calling the invaded country's leader a tyrant? Wow.
This Russian appeasement is dangerous and has never worked in the recent or distant history.

This forum is about Argentina, and therefore not the right place to debate that issue.

 

[Quilombo]

...what...? A democratic country was invaded by an authoritarian regime and you are calling the invaded country's leader a tyrant? Wow.
This Russian appeasement is dangerous and has never worked in the recent or distant history.

The invasion of Ukraine is a violation of their sovereignty and illegal under international law, but let's not pretend Ukraine is anything other than a kleptocracy; the worst parts of Argentina on steroids, things that would make even Cristina blush. Western countries like to act as if Ukraine was Norway prior to the invasion when it was basically I a Banana (Wheat?) Republic. Just Google the mainstream news articles about it pre-war and it's all stuff about rampant corruption making the EU uncomfortable, Azov Battalion, general incompetence, human rights violations, human and weapons trafficking, etc.

I also encourage any form members who think the war should continue to sign up here; put your money where your mouthes are: https://ildu.com.ua/

 

[Macanudo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795500379578253729

 

[antipodean]

I guess one tinpot tyrant loves another.

tyrant

someone who has total power and uses it in a cruel and unfair way

dictionary.cambridge.org

Neither Milei or Zelensky can be classified as a Tyrant.

@Redpossum, you can refresh my memory better than anyone as to your previous positions on the Argentine defence industry (Fabrica Militar, FANAZUL, ship building etc) having once said "But if your arms industry is primarily for export, as in the example of the Swiss...or Sweden... it can be as good a source of profit as any other cash export goods."?

Anyway, I would also agree that Argentina should pursue a neutral or at the very most a regionally focused position in world affairs. However if push were to come to shove, in true (former) Swede or Swiss style, I would much rather see Argentina aligned to the west than become an open-air mine for Chinese and Russian billionaires backed by their sponsor states who champion authoritarianism and proactively turning a blind eye to violent oppression of any hard-to-control concept such as diversity, democracy and human rights all in the name of "sovereignty" (which only counts until it doesn't and such a state decides to invade and/ or occupy another formerly sovereign state to put it back on the leash in true colonial fashion).

On a side note it is fascinating to see some of the comments in this thread that appear to be implying or calling Zelensky "undemocratic", a "tyrant" or a "fascist", as if Ukraine's corruption issues somehow justifies leaving them to be invaded and annexed by another country without so much as even giving them the tools to defend themselves from said invasion. All the while ignoring the fact that prior to the Russian invasion that plunged his country into total war and changed priorities, Zelensky made some pretty major reforms to de-centralize state power (not exactly something that any self-respecting undemocratic "fascist" would do), strip politicians like himself and judges of legal immunity and banned ogliarchs from donating to politicians or taking part in the privatization of state assets to try and target systemic corruption in the state. Reforms that Russia obviously did not like. It seems that some have decided that Ukraine is damned if they do and damned if they don't so best solution in true victim-blaming fashion would be if they would simply not exist anymore.

 

[Redpossum]

@Redpossum, you can refresh my memory better than anyone as to your previous positions on the Argentine defence industry (Fabrica Militar, FANAZUL, ship building etc) having once said "But if your arms industry is primarily for export, as in the example of the Swiss...or Sweden... it can be as good a source of profit as any other cash export goods."?

I honestly don't even see what your question or point is. Being neutral is one issue. Having a profitable arms export industry is another. Are you trying to conflate the two, or claim that they are mutually exclusive?

As in the two examples I cited in the quote above, Switzerland and Sweden both have a history of neutrality, and both had in past a profitable arms export industry. Sweden still does.

Going back to Argentina, although Argentina only joined the allies at the very end of the war, Argentina did sell beef, grain and other foodstuffs to the UK throughout the war, and made a handsome profit doing so, I'm sure.

My point is that the then-leaders of Argentina did what a government is supposed to do - they pursued the interests of Argentina and the Argentine people. That's what neutrality is.

For the historical record, the President of Argentina when it finally joined the Allies in early 1945 was Edelmiro Farrell . Perón was his VP.

Anyway, I would also agree that Argentina should pursue a neutral or at the very most a regionally focused position in world affairs. However if push were to come to shove, in true (former) Swede or Swiss style, I would much rather see Argentina aligned to the west than become an open-air mine for Chinese and Russian billionaires backed by their sponsor states

Argentina should not become an open-air mine at all, for anyone. Parts of Minas Gerais (Brazil) are an absolute nightmare in that regard.

 

[antipodean]

I honestly don't even see what your question or point is. Being neutral is one issue. Having a profitable arms export industry is another. Are you trying to conflate the two, or claim that they are mutually exclusive?

As in the two examples I cited in the quote above, Switzerland and Sweden both have a history of neutrality, and both had in past a profitable arms export industry. Sweden still does.

Going back to Argentina, although Argentina only joined the allies at the very end of the war, Argentina did sell beef, grain and other foodstuffs to the UK throughout the war, and made a handsome profit doing so, I'm sure.

My point is that the then-leaders of Argentina did what a government is supposed to do - they pursued the interests of Argentina and the Argentine people. That's what neutrality is.

For the historical record, the President of Argentina when it finally joined the Allies in early 1945 was Edelmiro Farrell . Perón was his VP.

Thanks for clearing that up, so I understand now you would see no problem for Argentina to sell arms to Ukraine if it were profitable (and thus in the interests of the Argentine economy).
Agree that the two points - arms sales and neutrality - are two separate issues.

 

[GMan_27]

tyrant

someone who has total power and uses it in a cruel and unfair way

dictionary.cambridge.org

Neither Milei or Zelensky can be classified as a Tyrant.

@Redpossum, you can refresh my memory better than anyone as to your previous positions on the Argentine defence industry (Fabrica Militar, FANAZUL, ship building etc) having once said "But if your arms industry is primarily for export, as in the example of the Swiss...or Sweden... it can be as good a source of profit as any other cash export goods."?

Anyway, I would also agree that Argentina should pursue a neutral or at the very most a regionally focused position in world affairs. However if push were to come to shove, in true (former) Swede or Swiss style, I would much rather see Argentina aligned to the west than become an open-air mine for Chinese and Russian billionaires backed by their sponsor states who champion authoritarianism and proactively turning a blind eye to violent oppression of any hard-to-control concept such as diversity, democracy and human rights all in the name of "sovereignty" (which only counts until it doesn't and such a state decides to invade and/ or occupy another formerly sovereign state to put it back on the leash in true colonial fashion).

On a side note it is fascinating to see some of the comments in this thread that appear to be implying or calling Zelensky "undemocratic", a "tyrant" or a "fascist", as if Ukraine's corruption issues somehow justifies leaving them to be invaded and annexed by another country without so much as even giving them the tools to defend themselves from said invasion. All the while ignoring the fact that prior to the Russian invasion that plunged his country into total war and changed priorities, Zelensky made some pretty major reforms to de-centralize state power (not exactly something that any self-respecting undemocratic "fascist" would do), strip politicians like himself and judges of legal immunity and banned ogliarchs from donating to politicians or taking part in the privatization of state assets to try and target systemic corruption in the state. Reforms that Russia obviously did not like. It seems that some have decided that Ukraine is damned if they do and damned if they don't so best solution in true victim-blaming fashion would be if they would simply not exist anymore.

Exactly, this right here.

Feels like horseshoe theory is on full display here. Normally, level headed forumites spewing Russian talking points left and right. Both Far Left and Far Right seem to have been infected by this ridiculous propaganda. Quoting facking Tucker Carlson.... wtf... The center is really weak it seems.

If this was an African / middle east resistance group fighting in their country then everyone would be applauding and saying that they need to do what they can do to free their country from tyranny. They are not held to a different standard and their right to exist is not questioned even if there is graft, gender inequality and far less democracy.

Yes there is graft in Ukraine but they have a democratically elected president who is making moves towards reducing corruption and bringing Ukraine closer towards a better state. Graft is no excuse for any invasion.

This war also directly impacts Russia's foreign influence in electing crackpot leaders that impact our area of the world such as Bolsonaro, Trump etc. This war impacts GLOBAL food and fuel prices which there are numerous threads about on this very forum.

I am no fan of Milei but if he is willing to support Ukraine through arms and other means of support then he must do it. Russia needs its teeth kicked in. Its easy to shout "stop the war" when you are comfortable and don't have your livelihood and the very freedoms you are expressing here threatened.

@Quilombo. Donated through another site but thanks none the less.

 

[Macanudo]

Donated through another site but thanks none the less.

Apparently, this poor soul doesn't have the option of simply donating money to prolong the war.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1797296210115490118