90 day visa

[steveinbsas]

As well as enforcement of the new decree, perhaps it should also be considered that perma tourists maybe over doing their passage thru Colonia to renew.

What difference will it make where anyone goes to renew if the new decree is meant to put an end to the renewals? Are there any ports of entry without computers?

 

[French jurist]

I didn't know about this. I had read that the US had given the codes. I'd love to find out more about this.

Here is one link but the facts are disputed : http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/22/books.france

In the same article there is this famous quote too : Mr Mitterrand - who once described Mrs Thatcher as "the eyes of Caligula and the mouth of Marilyn Monroe"

 

[gunt86]

Here is one link but the facts are disputed : http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/22/books.france

In the same article there is this famous quote too : Mr Mitterrand - who once described Mrs Thatcher as "the eyes of Caligula and the mouth of Marilyn Monroe"

Thanks! And great quote!
I did a bit more digging and it was submarine detectors, advanced missiles, and other weapons which the US supplied to the UK during the conflict.

 

[AlexfromLA]

From the growing list of stories that have been posted here in the past few weeks after the decreto was signed, I would say " permatourists " won't be an unofficial immigration category very much longer.

Argentina has been way too nice, way too lenient with regards to their open border policies and unenforced immigration laws and too many people have blatantly taken advantage of it.

If people want to live in Argentina, they should legalize their status and start paying taxes. This doesn't sound like too much to ask.

Immigration laws are still very liberal here and some of the most progressive and fair I have seen in the world. Just don't abuse them.

 

[gunt86]

If people want to live in Argentina, they should legalize their status and start paying taxes. This doesn't sound like too much to ask.

Immigration laws are still very liberal here and some of the most progressive and fair I have seen in the world. Just don't abuse them.

While i agree with your viewpoint, i wonder if you are aware of the secondary effects of the absence of the permatourist? Few of these people will qualify for other visa types and so will leave Argentina. That will have a large impact on businesses in Palermo and real estate prices in Palermo. Here is the 'crisis' you all have been yakking about. A 'crisis' of your own making!!! Quite ironic don't you think? People trying to 'escape' the 'imminent crisis' in the US, but in the process create a bubble of on their own, which has now been pricked! If only these 'forward thinking' minds so concerned about the US had put a little forward thinking into their own actions vis-à-vis Argnetina.

 

[A&A]

It seems based on all the discussions from all the threads that one could deduce the following with respect to the 90-day visa:

That while it should be objective, ones experience and outcome is almost always personal and subjective. Sure the law/decreto/regs what have you say 'X', but the application of the law is done by people and so application will always be unique, even when done by the same person. (Maybe today migraciones officer forgot to have his coffee, maybe his girlfriend walked out on him...who knows.)

If you think the law is "black & white" you are not in the real world, especially when applied by mid-to low level functionaries. (You never had a cop let you off of a speeding ticket? You never had some county clerk help you out with a "ok, but next time you have to do it this way?" All the time. And I would think that in Argentina with a more nuanced attitude towards rules, that this type of thing would occur all the time. As I think MizzMar pointed out..."hey cute girl comes up to immigration officer..and no problems". It happens

There is also a huge difference in how you are going to be perceived, just the same way people have described: guy with 14 entry stamps versus 4. The law theoretically should be applied the same way, but I guarantee it is not.

Bottom line: You will never get the answer to: "Will they turn me away at the border tomorrow?" until you go to the border!!

Steve, Alex, Jurist and others have spelled out the rules very clearly. But they nor I can tell you what's gonna happen if you come through the border in El Calafate after an overnight flight to Morocco in which you pass through customs in Cape Verde Islands, buy a sandwhich and then get back on the plane, accidentally drop your passport in the toilet, but had lunch in Colonia last weekend, with an Albania musician friend who went on a date with a migraciones officer that loves LAdy GaGa

end of thread?

Oh, and if it is "perma-tourists" propping up Palermo then well, it must not be that nice? Do you really think a couple, let's be generous and say thousand Skidmore/Lehigh/UCSB college grads living off their "graduation money" is keeping Palermo afloat. I would bet most expats with money and I mean "economy moving discretionary income money" are here working, have investments in property here, or have found a way to qualify (trusts, 401Ks) for visas and not "permatourists".

I do think qualifying for a visa is not so simple as just "get legal" (if it is please PM me), but perma-tourists are not "immigration reform" issue or an impending economic meltdown. At most it's some petty political powerplay.

 

[LAtoBA]

While i agree with your viewpoint, i wonder if you are aware of the secondary effects of the absence of the permatourist? Few of these people will qualify for other visa types and so will leave Argentina. That will have a large impact on businesses in Palermo and real estate prices in Palermo. Here is the 'crisis' you all have been yakking about. A 'crisis' of your own making!!! Quite ironic don't you think? People trying to 'escape' the 'imminent crisis' in the US, but in the process create a bubble of on their own, which has now been pricked! If only these 'forward thinking' minds so concerned about the US had put a little forward thinking into their own actions vis-à-vis Argnetina.

Gunt,

I think you're over inflating the economic importance of the average "permatourist" in Argentina. The decree won't affect those expats who have the money and resources to make things such as residency or another type of visa "happen". If you have enough money and are determined there is always a way. This is the way things have always worked not just in Argentina, but in Latin America....and hell probably the whole world over. Not to mention Argentina is still cheap, stylish and sophisticated enough "for being a Latin American country". What are the options? Brazil which is much more dangerous and two to four times more expensive with fewer job options? Drug and gang infested mexico? Sleepy Uruguay? Chile might be a safe bet but I don't know about their immigration laws.

The enforcement of the decree is really going to affect those that come here to teach english, be with their girlfriend/boyfriend etc, or live on a minimal peso salary and decide they want to stay. Also, we really shouldn't be complaining (not saying you are). As someone mentioned before, Argentina's immigration laws are some of the most lenient in Latin America.

In Brazil the laws are much more stringent and the real is much stronger than the peso. While that has prevented many a English teachers and others in a similar situation from calling the place their home, it hasn't led to the financial collapse of the country or really dented tourism all that much.

The new decree sucks but with all the anti-immigration stuff going on in the Western world, I can't say I blame them.

 

[steveinbsas]

That while it should be objective, ones experience and outcome is almost always personal and subjective. Sure the law/decreto/regs what have you say 'X', but the application of the law is done by people and so application will always be unique, even when done by the same person....

Bottom line: You will never get the answer to: "Will they turn me away at the border tomorrow?" until you go to the border!!

I think this has been the case, but with the new decreto that will probably change. The fact that the new decreto gave immigration "police powers" to enforce the law is ominous. It sounds like much stricter enforcement of the "regs" is eminent.

Oh, and if it is "perma-tourists" propping up Palermo then well, it must not be that nice? Do you really think a couple, let's be generous and say thousand Skidmore/Lehigh/UCSB college grads living off their "graduation money" is keeping Palermo afloat. I would bet most expats with money and I mean "economy moving discretionary income money" are here working, have investments in property here, or have found a way to qualify (trusts, 401Ks) for visas and not "permatourists".

I agree that this will not have an impact on real estate prices (few foreigners have been buying in the past year or two), but I do know several members of this forum who own properties in CF and do not have legal temporary residency. The new financial requirements for temporary resident visas guarantee that they never will. They are nice people and I know how they feel (the same as I felt when migraciones briefly stopped granting permanent residency on the third renewal of a temporary resident visa).

I do think qualifying for a visa is not so simple as just "get legal" (if it is please PM me), but perma-tourists are not "immigration reform" issue or an impending economic meltdown. At most it's some petty political powerplay.

You're right. It's suddenly four times more difficult than ever, at least from a financial standpoint, to qualify for the visa rentista. I don't think the new financial requirements for resident visas were implemented to save the Argentine economy, either. It may seem "petty" to some of us but this is their country and if they have decided to enforce their own immigration laws it's certainly their prerogative.

 

[gunt86]

I think you're over inflating the economic importance of the average "permatourist" in Argentina. The decree won't affect those expats who have the money and resources to make things such as residency or another type of visa "happen".

The problem with real estate, like most other assets, is that it is the marginal buyer or seller who sets the price for the entire inventory. You can look that concept up in an economics textbook if you don't understand it.
As a personal anecdote, of the hundreds of expats i have met personally in BsAs, i can't even remember a single one of them who had a visa which would enable them to stay here long term. It was always a shock when i told them i was a permanent resident. Now it is 4 times harder to get a rentista visa than it was. Work visas are difficult because few expats can find a sponsor company or a job with a decent salary. Investment visas are incredibly difficult to get now. There isn't much left except marriage to an argie.

So the question is "Will there be more buyers than sellers, or more sellers than buyers in Palermo?". Given that there has been a firehose of expats 'moving to' BsAs since 2002, has that firehose been shut off? I think it already has been shut off due to the economic conditions in the source countries (US, UK in particular). Now with the immigration restrictions here, it makes it impossible for many of these non-legal expats to enjoy their BsAs homes. Even if they try to rent them out, who will rent them? The supply of permatourists will have been shut off. So they think that they will rent the homes out to short term stays, well since many expats will be thinking the same thing, then the rental prices will collapse. Oh, don't forget the rental income tax issue. I adamantly believe that there will be many more sellers than buyers of Palermo real estate in the next few years. The party is over, and not just for the permatourists, but also for any legal residents who's business model or source of income is/was dependent on the permatourists (doesn't have to be 100% dependent, even 15% dependent would be enough to create negative cash flow).

I am just making a prediction based on my knowledge and understanding of markets. There may be other events which transpire and make my prediction null, but all else being equal, i am confident the real estate market is done.

 

[MizzMarr]

Personally I don't understand why Argentina would make these laws to punish and make it harder on ostensibly upwardly mobile people who are here pouring their money into the economy. Of course not all foreigners here are poor backpackers neither are they wealthy investors, but a lot fall in the middle. Now "wanting to live here" isn't enough without a substantial amount of money to invest or passive income. Most don't qualify for the current visas, and many permatourists will have to pack their bags. My bet is that ultimately these kinds of new restrictions are going to hurt Argentina more than anything. There was a boom of construction over the past few years, and now you see a lot of half-built skyrises or other buildings that sit empty. Also I've seen noticable degredations along side the swelling inflation (a lot more homeless on the street in my neighborhood in just the last two months!) that don't bode well--not that this is directly related to the permatourist, just an indication of the state of Argentina (or Capital, at least) in general.