Argentina And A New "colonial Devil"?

[wild_horses]

The "US" doesn't lend Argentina money. Can we at least have an intelligent conversation?

I suspect by "US" we mean "the international money market" or "sovereign bond market", they don't lend Argentina money because they don't like the odds of Argentina playing by the rules in terms of repayments. Whether that decision is right or wrong can be debated I suppose, but it's not a concern of the money market.

China's investments are state controlled, they are done so on the basis of need. Their pressing need is not foreign currency, it's food and raw materials, Rather than extra returns, they need the raw materials to help fuel their economy. Argentina can provide a variety of these, they'll take Chinese money now and guarantee raw materials, grains, soy etc (whether they have hedged for a good price on these materials long term remains to be seen) and invest it where they need to. This govt needs to make some political capital out of social spending, so that's where the money goes. Their return (they hope) will come from the ballet box.

Let's be grown up and objective, there are no altruistic lenders out there. China pumps money into Veneuela to guarantee petroleum flows to them, to Argentina to guarantee other raw materials.

I find it highly amusing to watch Argentina, a socially progressive country, welcoming Putin with open arms whilst ignoring his deplorable behaviour. What do FpV think about banning transexuals and transgenders from driving? How does that sit with those progressive inclusive policies?

Not defending the economic system the US has given us, that's another discussion, but lets at least be realistic about the people we're jumping into bed with here!

Ps. No, Argentina has not run out of South American allies. Not even slightly despite the wishing, groaning and moaning that goes on from the pensioner brigade on here.

PPs. American industry and globalisation, pertro industry, fracking industry and military are Greenpeace now are they!? Friends of the Earth is it? Give me a break, take a look at yer own back yard before lumping in to the Chinese. Took you long enough to wake up to Climate change and sign a fcking agreement.

Intelligent? Well, tell me, intelligent being, during the 90's who lent money to Argentina and what kind of money? Dollars.

Who lent money, approved and trained the military during the 70's in Argentina? The US

I am not talking about lending money now, can you read and interpret a text properly, "intelligent" person? What I said was that during the 90's, with the US approval, different institutions lent money to Argentina for corruption and speculation. Did you know, "intelligent" person, that without the back of the US no one could give money to Argentina, are you that naive or just thick?

So, what do you have to say about the US backing terrorist around the world, like the UK or you Irish country? Backing regimes that torture and murder people just because they do not like their thoughts or because a woman did not wear a burka?

You are a laugh, seriously.

How did Argentina end up after the "carnal relations" with the US? 60% poverty, 25% extreme poverty, privatization of the little industry that we had, etc, etc.

 

[mc kenna]

Well, yeah, you got us, we are monsters,better buddy buddy with China champion of human rights
And another thing,since you seem to be very smart,how come is always the US fault for all the problems Argentina had or will have?
I think, and i might be wrong, but isn't there a possibility that your country sold out all the state owned assets and didn't know how to negotiate them correctly?which btw they were all operating in the red since day one and the popular outcry at the time was''sell everything" since its state run it will never work because everyone was stealing from those companies.....
It may be a good time to start owning up to the shortcomings of past and present administrations and quit pointing fingers at everyone else but yourselves
As the old saying goes'' life is hard, even harder when you are stupid''

 

[ElQueso]

I fully expected Wild Horses (and Matias - where are you man? I don't agree with almost anything you say about Argentina but I do respect you because at least you are a seemingly nice guy, unlike WH) to be telling us what a great deal for the future of Argentina that China's colonization will be. I also fully expected WH to point back to their "association" with the US and once again blame the US for all the troubles this poor, beaten, broken country has been through.

Because WH represents everything that is wrong with this country. Bravo, dude, thanks for meeting my expectations.

Of course why did I use terms like "maybe", "possibly", etc? Well, you'd have had to read the article (which I doubt very much you actually did, except maybe the first paragraph or so) and understand subtlety a bit.

Only RichardP linked to what China is doing in Africa, where they have already colonized heavily. It was mentioned in the article I linked to, as well. The reason I was saying "maybe" et al?

Girado said that it was "clear" that China would not replicate in Argentina the "pattern" applied in some African and Asian nations, and that the issue of manpower was not the "most pressing one.

Even though the wording of the agreement is pretty much the same where China has "colonized" before, an Argentine economic expert is saying it's somehow "clear" that China won't act that way here. Hahahahahahaha. Of course, because the Chinese are saviors of the Argentine people, it's just that they don't like Africans, I guess. Of course, people like WH believe that somehow this will be different. And if he's right about that, then most likely it will be because he knows Argentina will find a way to screw over China like they do every other "trading partner".

Of course, it's the US's fault that Argentina is poor and broken. Oh, or Argentina isn't poor and broken, it's made a great recovery after the US forced it to bankruptcy in 2001. Poor Argentina who just can't catch a break. The government always treats so fairly and squarely everyone it does business with but just keeps getting screwed and now China's going to make everything all right.

Again, Argentina could actually do what is right (I don't expect WH or his ilk who are in power to understand why they are in the wrong on this, so I won't bother to explain yet again), get access to foreign bond market once again and this time to do something with the money instead of feed social programs that keep poor, ignorant slaves just happy enough not to riot in the streets, but rather look at international trade (and don't trade with the US or Europe, that's fine, go somewhere else!) to help fix their brokeness.

Why won't they do this? Because Argentina is an "aprovechador" and will always look at the "easy way out", which always screws them in the end. It is Argentina itself who ends up inviting in trouble, not trouble who forces its way in.

 

[homeinbuenosaires]

Bianca Fernet did a piece on this back in November, if anyone is interested:

http://bubblear.com/spirited-defense-imperialism-whatever-lame-thing-adrian-makes-change/

I've learned not to try to even have discussions with people who don't understand complexity and see everything in black and white/ zero sum terms - if I'd known to do this years ago when I first moved/ invested everything I have here, I might have had an easier time of it.

Such people don't understand how I can be Estadounidense/ British/ (indigenous) Argentine all at the same time, so it ends up just being an exercise in frustration for me. The idea of forming one's own opinion - which can of course evolve along with changing circumstances - via direct experience is also incomprehensible to them.

This country deserves a lot better than it currently has, education-wise. I've banged my head against the wall in enough university-level classroms here (and continue to do so, because clearly I am some kind of masochist) to be able to see that. If I knew how to be part of a real solution to this problem, which I believe to be one of the major roots of the rest of the myriad problems here, I'd be dedicating most of my seriously depleted energies to that.

 

[JoeGillis]

I fully expected Wild Horses (and Matias - where are you man? I don't agree with almost anything you say about Argentina but I do respect you because at least you are a seemingly nice guy, unlike WH) to be telling us what a great deal for the future of Argentina that China's colonization will be. I also fully expected WH to point back to their "association" with the US and once again blame the US for all the troubles this poor, beaten, broken country has been through.

Because WH represents everything that is wrong with this country. Bravo, dude, thanks for meeting my expectations.

Of course why did I use terms like "maybe", "possibly", etc? Well, you'd have had to read the article (which I doubt very much you actually did, except maybe the first paragraph or so) and understand subtlety a bit.

Only RichardP linked to what China is doing in Africa, where they have already colonized heavily. It was mentioned in the article I linked to, as well. The reason I was saying "maybe" et al?



Even though the wording of the agreement is pretty much the same where China has "colonized" before, an Argentine economic expert is saying it's somehow "clear" that China won't act that way here. Hahahahahahaha. Of course, because the Chinese are saviors of the Argentine people, it's just that they don't like Africans, I guess. Of course, people like WH believe that somehow this will be different. And if he's right about that, then most likely it will be because he knows Argentina will find a way to screw over China like they do every other "trading partner".

Of course, it's the US's fault that Argentina is poor and broken. Oh, or Argentina isn't poor and broken, it's made a great recovery after the US forced it to bankruptcy in 2001. Poor Argentina who just can't catch a break. The government always treats so fairly and squarely everyone it does business with but just keeps getting screwed and now China's going to make everything all right.

Again, Argentina could actually do what is right (I don't expect WH or his ilk who are in power to understand why they are in the wrong on this, so I won't bother to explain yet again), get access to foreign bond market once again and this time to do something with the money instead of feed social programs that keep poor, ignorant slaves just happy enough not to riot in the streets, but rather look at international trade (and don't trade with the US or Europe, that's fine, go somewhere else!) to help fix their brokeness.

Why won't they do this? Because Argentina is an "aprovechador" and will always look at the "easy way out", which always screws them in the end. It is Argentina itself who ends up inviting in trouble, not trouble who forces its way in.

Keep it coming, ElQueso. Great post, as always.

 

[Pensador]

Intelligent? Well, tell me, intelligent being, during the 90's who lent money to Argentina and what kind of money? Dollars.

Now you see this is a perfect example. When you start main lining the K dust your brain starts working backwards and reality morphs into any excuse for my lazy looser country goes! In the K addicted brain the US is the guilty evil lender. Which is not even true. But in reality a man with a sober brain analyzes reality, looks at history and thinks Argentina borrowed money and did not pay it back. Lets see how many times in resent history did lazy, corrupt losing Argentina barrow money and not pay it back?

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/07/30/argentinas-long-history-of-economic-booms-and-busts/

Hmmm looks like somebody cannot handle money.

What does the K crack head say? Oh no my K dust is telling me its the lenders they are the problem those evil vultures they want us to actually pay them back.

Gotta stop main lining the K horse Wild until you and rest of country men do its only going to be more of the same which eventually is going to include more of the worst ever.

That being said... Why is Argentina a complete looser right now while countries like Japan, Korea, China and others have exploded on to the world stage in the last 60 years.

You Wild and those like you and your politicians are your own worst enemies.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

Intelligent? Well, tell me, intelligent being, during the 90's who lent money to Argentina and what kind of money? Dollars.

Who lent money, approved and trained the military during the 70's in Argentina? The US

I am not talking about lending money now, can you read and interpret a text properly, "intelligent" person? What I said was that during the 90's, with the US approval, different institutions lent money to Argentina for corruption and speculation. Did you know, "intelligent" person, that without the back of the US no one could give money to Argentina, are you that naive or just thick?

So, what do you have to say about the US backing terrorist around the world, like the UK or you Irish country? Backing regimes that torture and murder people just because they do not like their thoughts or because a woman did not wear a burka?

You are a laugh, seriously.

How did Argentina end up after the "carnal relations" with the US? 60% poverty, 25% extreme poverty, privatization of the little industry that we had, etc, etc.

Constantly putting quotation marks around intelligent, as though it were some sort of clever subtle means of making up a point isn't going to help fill in the enormous blanks in your understanding of how sovereign states obtain credit. Neither am I. I suggest you do some research. the money markets are not a new invention. i imagine there were American companies involved, as there were Italian and Asian. Of course, it would be somewhat useful, honest even, to recognise that Argentina borrowed the money freely from the money markets.

As for the US and the Uk, quite frankly I have no interest in defending them from your "whataboutery" , not being British or American. No doubt someone here will take up the mantle. I dont support agressive military foreign policy. Not that it is relevant to sovereign bond markets and Argentina.

Ireland and US terrorism? If you want to go there we can, what are trying to suggest?Irish Americans funded the IRA, the British enabled the UVF and a sectarian police, I can assure you the bogeymen in the Irish conflict belong on all sides.

I would suggest that a different form of populism (convertability) in the 90s and a poorly managed economy caused Argentina's problems. This was home grown lunacy, not US policy. People voted for it, thought they were rich. Before that the manufacturing base was destroyed by the military, before that Peron implemented populist protectionist policies which sowed the seeds of isolation and the biggest problem of them all...lack of independent institutions to balance against pendulum swings in economic and social policy.

It will be interesting to see if you are capable of forming a response that doesnt rely on insults. Try arguing the point.

 

[ElQueso]

[...]i imagine there were American companies involved, as there were Italian and Asian. Of course, it would be somewhat useful, honest even, to recognise that Argentina borrowed the money freely from the money markets.[...]

I understand that one of the worst hit from Argentina's original default were Greek pension funds. One can say whatever one wants about the "vultures" and other holdouts and Griesa's ruling, et al, but I also understand that the "vultures" paid significantly more to buy out those worried (rightfully so) about their bonds than Argentina herself did. and the holdouts are a very small minority of people who are now not getting paid by the latest default.

All of this government's posturing about the unfairness of the holdouts and Griesa's rulings, while maybe even having some small justification, are only about trying to get out of paying money duly owed, accumulated by actions directly responsible by the people of Argentina itself. And too many people here believe Cristina's "David vs Goliath" posturing. Why not? It's the way too many people here do business to begin with.

 

[Pensador]

You know ElQueso thinking about it China taking over Argentina might be a great thing for Uruguay. Might even be a great thing for South America. 10M Chinese labors replacing the Argentinian labor force would make a huge difference and all bums in Argentina could finally do what they love to do.. Nothing.

 

[ElQueso]

Facetiously, I might agree with you Realistically, it would mean less money going into Argentine hands and those who want to do as little as possible here still have to work to have party money.