Argentina; land of the selfish

[maskow]

Thank you, BF4.The English word "selfish" is, indeed, misapplied.How on earth anyone can term "selfish" people that live in their own country the way that they please is beyond me.Apparently, people visiting from the "proper" countries (this being a THIRD world country, after all) can term any activity that they may or may not encounter in their home nations annoying and sub-standard. This disregards, as you mentioned, the faults that they seem so ready to forgive amongst themselves.To my mind, that is truly a very selfish attitude...in the true sense of the English word.I could go on but it would be to the benefit of no one.Let us wish them well. Perhaps, they will find somewhere that conforms to the way they wish the rest of us should conduct ourselves.We should all be so lucky.

 

[Maca]

Thank you, BF4.
The English word "selfish" is, indeed, misapplied.
How on earth anyone can term "selfish" people that live in their own country the way that they please is beyond me.
Apparently, people visiting from the "proper" countries (this being a THIRD world country, after all) can term any activity that they may or may not encounter in their home nations annoying and sub-standard.
This disregards, as you mentioned, the faults that they seem so ready to forgive amongst themselves.
To my mind, that is truly a very selfish attitude...in the true sense of the English word.
I could go on but it would be to the benefit of no one.
Let us wish them well. Perhaps, they will find somewhere that conforms to the way they wish the rest of us should conduct ourselves.
We should all be so lucky.

 

[Maca]

Haha- whoops- got that qoute thing a bit wrong.
"I could go on but it would be to the benefit of no one"
-why stop now? you seem to be doing an outstanding job at doing just that, while throwing a good dose of hypocrisy in there for added measure.

 

[maskow]

Yikes! Hypocracy?What struck you as hypocritical?Honestly. What? Be a LITTLE more specific...and let's continue. I'll be here all night...watching the returns.But if all you're doing is the same ol' "up is down", "black is white", "day is night", "right is left", sort of *stuff*...I think your day has come and gone.

 

[horacew2006]

Seems I have stirred up a hornet's nest. I was merely commenting on the selfishness of playing incredibly loud music all night long. It seems to me that this would be inconsiderate anywhere in the world however on this website excuses are made for all sorts of rudeness. Whether Americans are equally selfish in other ways (I am not an American, so I shall not attempt to defend Americans) is really quite irrelevant. What matters to me is that people here are often quite inconsiderate of others. You can tell me that I am wrong but I have lived here long enough to form my own opinions. Some expats tend to defend every bad local habit. Why this is the case I am not quite sure; I can only surmise that they are so unhappy with their own countries (from what I can tell, mainly the US) that they are willing to justify any sort of uncivil baheviour in Argentina. My suspicion is that these people will not stay very long in Argentina. The ability to make money, enjoy judicial and other security plus the comforts and ease of life in the US, UK or other developed countries will eventually outweigh their willingness to put up with the difficulties of living here. When the peso-dollar-pound-euro exchange rate is less favourable, most will abandon ship! As for me....I shall be following that oft repeated advice found on this webpage: go home! Those plans are well underway, so this will be my last post. The rest of you can carry on the battle. Cheers!

 

[perry]

I have lived in Buenos aires for 2 years now and definetly do not have rose coloured glasses now.
I do love this city for its intoxicating energy and beauty but I do find portenos in general more selfish than most city people I have ever met.
I find the lack of civil manners of the footpaths and banks incredible and people will continually bump into you without even an acknowledgement.
Argentine society is very much focused on the individual and certainly does not have a culture of working together. There is certainly a lack of kindness here that shocks me at times and certainly I am not fooled by the warm greetings here when they lack sincerity.
I laugh when people say that in argentina family means everything . Tell me why then has Buenos Aires got a divorce rate over 50 percent certainly much higher than america and most countries of europe. I find people here are not willing to talk and work out differences and they use phsycotheraphy just to have someone to vent to but really do not communicate very well.
Argentina society takes a while to understand and dont be fooled by short trips here.Certainly over time the truth will emerge

 

[syngirl]

The fact is San Telmo, Recoleta, Palermo and the like are not Nirvanas. Nor do the Porteños think of them as such. The barrios that foreigners tend to settle in are certainly not revered by the locals as oases. If you don't like the noise, you must follow the lead of the Porteños themselves -- move to Zona Norte. It really is not that far. And you can have your own house with a pool for about the same price as a place in Recoleta.

If you truly can't stand the idea of living outside of Capital, other options are Caballito (at my BF's family's house you can hear a pin drop 3 cuadras over), Villa del Parque, Parque Chacabuco, parts of Villa Crespo and Collegiales (both within walking distance of Palermo), and more.

Living in "one of the most expensive parts of town" has nothing to do with whether or not you should expect better noise quality. BA is an extremely high density city, and any noise reverberates off of one building to the next.

It's like my own parents in Vancouver -- for some unknown reason at the age of 70 they decided to sell their house in one of the leafiest, quietest neighbourhoods of the city and move downtown. Now although they love the view and the proximity to cafes, restos, theatres (does this sound familiar to all you residents of Palermo / Recoleta and the like), they complain of the noise from the kids leaving the bars at night, the traffic, the music, the sirens etc etc. I'm sorry but the response is the same -- what did you expect? Move into a high density neighbourhood and you have to expect all of the issues of noise.

 

[JG]

Its not necessarily the density of the area, its that they DONT HAVE MUFFLERS on their cars and the busses are permitted to be in indescribable condition, resulting in huge clouds of black smoke and deafening noise. (thats the adjective for it.)
Further, I agree they certainly DO chose to live this way. but selfish is "me, me, me, me, me, and more me". thats what i see each day as they throw trash with their arrogant swagger. My morning began with a cloud of black smoke from the bus passing my door. the selfish owner wont repair it, the selfish drivers wont put a muffler on their car, the selfish person just parked right in the pedestrian crosswalk blocking it (they always do).
Thats all just on the 3 block walk to this ciber. when selfish jumps out at you THAT much, even if i politely keep my trap shut, id still be thinking they dont care about anyone else but me, me, me, me, me. dont you love ME, theyre saying.
Not that i want to bring up semantics again, but theres a difference between arrogant (wont change, wont listen, i am the best) and confident (proud and secure in your merits and abilities).

 

[bigbadwolf]

Further, I agree they certainly DO chose to live this way. but selfish is "me, me, me, me, me, and more me". thats what i see each day as they throw trash with their arrogant swagger. My morning began with a cloud of black smoke from the bus passing my door. the selfish owner wont repair it, the selfish drivers wont put a muffler on their car, the selfish person just parked right in the pedestrian crosswalk blocking it (they always do).

Group behavior is not a matter of choice, JG: it's a matter of inherent group disposition. That's why I asked you to explore the reasons for why Argentines behave differently. It's not enough to be railing continuously at the fact that the people at the place where you have chosen to live act differently: you're just setting yourself up for high blood pressure or a heart attack. Different ethnicities, different nationalities, act and live differently. Would you be railing the same way if you were living in Saudi Arabia or Somalia, both countries of which have their own frustrations? I doubt you would. Then why not make the same accommodation for Argentina? Why hold them to the same standard of behavior as might prevail in Finland or Switzerland?

 

[gracielle]

Very healthy discussion!!!! Expats thinking about moving here permanently need to hear all sides. Isn't this one of the functions of this forum?

I am in agreement with SYNGIRL and BF4. I live by choice in Caballito....2 blocks from Acoyte and Rivadavia on a tree-lined street. The train passes 1 block away. My apt is an oasis of quietness. I come and go at all hours of the day and night. Security does not seem to be a problem here...yet. When I want to rub elbows with crowds, I head for one of the busiest intersections. Yes, I also deal with dirty sidewalks, etc, etc. This is the nature of the beast. Try living in some countries in Central America for a realistic comparison. I have due to my work. Life is just as cheap there but what you get in return is a far cry from living in BA. I am not here to attempt to change it. But I also don't contribute to making it worse. I enjoy the positive aspects of my birth city and my barrio.