Argentina; land of the selfish

[chris]

Portenos make a big issue of how "European" BA is. This is reinforced by foreign travel writers who buy into the image. Foreigners usually live in upscale neighborhoods that look 1st world so they have high expectations. This is likely to lead to frustration. As for the noise issue, I am not convinced (nor is it my experience) that it is all an issue of density. Culture is the determining factor in my opiunion. Despite having lots of money, the Japanese live under what most Americans would consider appalling conditions. De Gaulle once referred to Japanese homes as "rabbit hutches" yet in my thrree years in Japan I found people consistently courteous and considerate of one another. Mr. Wolf suggests that Argentines should be judged by radically different standards. He may be right. This raises another issue: what do Portenos mean when they describe themselves and their city as "European" / what do travel writers mean? What is the reality?

 

[syngirl]

Its not necessarily the density of the area, its that they DONT HAVE MUFFLERS on their cars and the busses are permitted to be in indescribable condition, resulting in huge clouds of black smoke and deafening noise. (thats the adjective for it.)

Just so you know, the government has actually frozen the tarriffs for the buses, so that many of the companies cannot afford to update their vehicles. So they have to decide what they can maintain -- I would rather they have brakes that function rather than a muffler. Many of the bus companies are having to limit the number of vehicles they have on the road, or are even going under simply because 80 centavos a ride is not enough to maintain their fleets.
Stating that things are "permitted" assumes that there is another option. For the bus companies, refurbishing entire fleets and installing mufflers, getting rid of diesel engines etc etc etc is not financially viable while tarriffs are so low. And even though for you or I an increase of 20 centavos in the fare wouldn't kill us, it would hinder a large portion of the bus-riding public in the city.

 

[pablosantelmo]

It's only an observation (so don't all jump on me!) but isn't Argentina the land where protocol reigns....in a shop people will attempt to serve five people at once because protocol demands it.....in a shop the richest woman will push to the front of the queue and wave her money in front of the cashier's face because that is the protocol here...... People who have little power or influence can hide behind formality and politeness and in a society where nobody knows the answer to anything (whether it's a tax question or where in EASY they keep the bath plugs)......as long as one follows the protocol ("preguntita?" cheek-kissing? Saying hello, how are you -even when you've already said it five million times to other lackeys in the assault course known as Banco Frances and when you have only got 2 minutes of your lunchbreak left to go....etc etc). The only thing that shocks me is when somebody whether foreign or Argentine suddenly has ENOUGH....it likes a powder keg, years and years of protocol go down in flames and it's like watching Michael Douglas off-load in the film Falling Down...
I love Bs As by the way....it is not Sweden (where everything is organised and people know what their doing)....and isn't it all OUR choice to be here? Great place to holiday, learn Castellano, go out to dinner, read books, study anthropology....work...not so sure.....

 

[bigbadwolf]

I love Bs As by the way....it is not Sweden (where everything is organised and people know what their doing)....and isn't it all OUR choice to be here? Great place to holiday, learn Castellano, go out to dinner, read books, study anthropology....work...not so sure.....

Argentina has its compensations: it's a beautiful, wide-open, sparsely populated land. And I find Argentinians remarkably free of malice (something I can't claim for myself ;-)). I think it's a mistake, an exercise in futility, to hold the people of Argentina to the same standard as Nordic Europeans or North-East Asians. One wouldn't do it for Bolivians or Peruvians, so why do it for Argentinians? Once one has made this accommodation, life becomes easier, and one can enjoy what Argentina does have to offer, instead of bashing one's head against a brick wall.

 

[perry]

great thread and I do beleive that if you are living here full time you are entitled to express the negatives that you see aound you.
I do enjoy Buenos aires but after a while it can get very manic and certainly the portenos lose their charm factor after 1 month
People in Buenos Aires may be charming when you visit as a tourist but amongst each other they are their own worse enemies.
The worst atributes I see here is the mistrust that people have towards each other and that creates a negative atmosphere. Porteno culture is not built on giving your neighbour a helping hand and certainly the egostical nature of the inhabitants is not world famous for nothing.
A famous saying is how does an argentine commit suicide.
answer He jumps off his own ego
Always remember that

 

[chris]

Mr. Wolf writes: "I think it's a mistake, an exercise in futility, to hold the people of Argentina to the same standard as Nordic Europeans or North-East Asians. One wouldn't do it for Bolivians or Peruvians, so why do it for Argentinians?"

Bolivians and Peruvians are quite different from Argentines, especially Portenos. Since Portenos often describe themselves and their city as "Europeaan" its not unreasonable to make comparisons to Europe, at least to southern Europe - certainly not to the Nordic countries.

 

[JG]

Yeah, lets just all throw our garbage and enjoy the place. 1, 2, 3, TOSS!! spit, puff away.
Sad though (slightly changing the original topic) that for me the over the top noise and pollution robs me of enjoying the place (im in a small town now and maybe...maybe.....20 or 30% of the cars would be permitted on the roads back home).
Back to the original topic (which proved to be quite lively), I meant all i said above in my other posts. ive been to quite a few countries, some very poor, and hung out with lots of locals. they had smiles, often a happy attitude i could admire despite being poor. Here, i see sad, freaked out (ok, that one is basically BA), a real inner sadness, and distrustful, because you cant count on the money being real and people will lie right to your face.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Bolivians and Peruvians are quite different from Argentines, especially Portenos. Since Portenos often describe themselves and their city as "European" its not unreasonable to make comparisons to Europe, at least to southern Europe - certainly not to the Nordic countries.

They can think of themselves what they want. As it says somewhere, "By their actions shall ye know them." I didn't choose the word "selfish," and it seems to me not the most appropriate (as a couple of posters have pointed out, the USA is a selfish place); more apt would be "inconsiderate" and "lacking in civic sense." Argentineans seem not to have the wit to realise that having their own inconsiderate way contributes towards a lower quality of life for everyone.
We don't expect Bolivians and Peruvians to measure up to North European standards because we know they're mostly not European. Why not put Argentineans in the same category? I've read somewhere that not more than 40% of Argentina's gene pool is of European provenance. That explains a helluva lot. Furthermore, the European element is mostly South European: cities like Rome are hardly exemplary, and a country like Italy is always awash in corruption scandals.
People choosing to live in Argentina have to temper their expectations, instead of incessantly whining on about what a goshawful place the country is.

 

[Mitch]

Hi All of you
It's a pleasure to read posts about my own country having lived in the US for 3 years....
Regardless of Horace's depiction of Argentineans as self-centered and individualistic(with many of whose descriptions I agree ), it seems some of you forgot some basic facts-habits about the USA. I myself lived three years ago in the USA, and had my personal experience as well, I have never lived in another country, but I came back intimately convinced that should there be a most selfish ranking country the USA would top it.
-Millions of Homeless (in a country with the world's highest GDP)
- No general medical insurance (one out of five uninsured)- It wouldn't surprise me that the figure should rise as medical costs are sky rocketing.
-Increasing tax burden on the middle class and a general uproar whenever any tax change debate arises......Greed, greed.....
-No interest whatsoever in what happens abroad, foreign politics, sports, it's all about the USA, the world finishes where the USA finishes. Just take a look at the headlines of the main newspapers.
-No time nor culture to enjoy some of the true pleasures of life: family (americans gather twice a year, for thankgiving and christmas with luck!), food, friends. Life revolves around jobs and if that means moving every five months and uprooting a family, breaking a couple, then be it, money comes first.
-Kids' education based on being the smartest kid on town, therefore the preassure on practising yoga,joining play groups, etc from 3 months onwards..No surprise then on the recurring incidents of high school violence. That sheds some light on what is going on with american families (for more information I recommend LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE, not to miss!)

I could go on forever and ever but I don't want to bore you (Should I speak about the how the USA endorses the Genevas' Convention of war detainees?) No, I guess you could all go and watch The Road to Guantanamo by yourself...
I believe there are worse thing that tuning the music so high that even your mercosur neighbours could listen
Saludos and
Good night

It seems you've been so busy searching for "facts" in the US that you forgot the reality of your own country...
Let's see...
-Millions of Homeless (in a country with the world's highest GDP)
Well... Argentina produces enough food to feed more than 250 million people. Yet, it has millions of starving people.
-Increasing tax burden on the middle class and a general uproar whenever any tax change debate arises......Greed, greed.....
Have you ever heard of TAX EVASION? The Argentine national sport, right?
-No time nor culture to enjoy some of the true pleasures of life: family (americans gather twice a year, for thankgiving and christmas with luck!), food, friends. Life revolves around jobs and if that means moving every five months and uprooting a family, breaking a couple, then be it, money comes first.
Yes, some Argentine families gather every Sunday. Does that make them better? From what I have observed, I don't think so. As someone said earlier, they have lots of problems. Divorce rates are also high and cheating is a common practice. Argentine families may look great on the surface... but don't be fooled by that...
-Kids' education based on being the smartest kid on town, therefore the preassure on practising yoga,joining play groups, etc from 3 months onwards..No surprise then on the recurring incidents of high school violence. That sheds some light on what is going on with american families (for more information I recommend LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE, not to miss!)
It seems you need to do a little updating, pal... Funnily enough, not so long ago I saw a TV program about the increase of violence at Argentine schools. It showed some specialists talking about how freaked out and violent the teens are... Do you remember the kid that killed 3 classmates in Patagones?

 

[chris]

Mr. Wolf...You are probably right about the racial breakdown of Argentina (about 40% European) however in large parts of Barrio Norte the owner/residents are of largely European stock and not all of southern European origin - there are many of eastern European descent. Despite this there seems to be a lack of community spirit here that exceeds anything I have seen elsewhere. I go back to my earlier statement that only you have addressed...Portenos make a big issue of being "European". Just what does this mean?