Argentina; land of the selfish

[bigbadwolf]

Mr. Wolf...You are probably right about the racial breakdown of Argentina (about 40% European) however in large parts of Barrio Norte the owner/residents are of largely European stock and not all of southern European origin - there are many of eastern European descent. Despite this there seems to be a lack of community spirit here that exceeds anything I have seen elsewhere. I go back to my earlier statement that only you have addressed...Portenos make a big issue of being "European". Just what does this mean?

These are complex questions, and methinks a number of differing responses may be proffered. Firstly, I'm not sure there's any greater "community feeling" in a city like New York, though clearly its residents act in a more civilised fashion. My opinion at the moment is that cities like Helsinki, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Tokyo, and Singapore are exemplary cities -- Nordic and East Asian. Secondly, my conviction is that the more diversity one has, the greater the problems. In this connection there has been a recent Harvard study:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=FT&Date=20061008&ID=6085419
QUOTE A bleak picture of the corrosive effects of ethnic diversity has been revealed in research by Harvard University's Robert Putnam, one of the world's most influential political scientists.
The core message of the research was that, "in the presence of diversity, we hunker down", he said. "We act like turtles. The effect of diversity is worse than had been imagined. And it's not just that we don't trust people who are not like us. In diverse communities, we don't trust people who do look like us."
Prof Putnam found trust was lowest in Los Angeles, "the most diverse human habitation in human history", but his findings also held for rural South Dakota, where "diversity means inviting Swedes to a Norwegians' picnic".
When the data were adjusted for class, income and other factors, they showed that the more people of different races lived in the same community, the greater the loss of trust. "They don't trust the local mayor, they don't trust the local paper, they don't trust other people and they don't trust institutions," said Prof Putnam. "The only thing there's more of is protest marches and TV watching."UNQUOTE
A city like Buenos Aires is racially stratified, though more subtly than, say, Rio or Sao Paolo. People of European descent are to be found clustered at the top, while non-European admixture becomes increasingly prevalent the further down the socio-economic ladder one goes. Racially diverse societies lack social cohesion and, synonymously, community spirit.
I hasten to add that there may be other equally plausible or persuasive theories. These are merely my opinions at the present time.

 

[malbec]

First: some of the posters start talking about BA and end up talking
about Argentina. Well, someone who thinks people in BA are like in the
rest of the country knows nothing about the country.Second:
selfish is not a good adjective to describe porteños. 'Lacking in civic
sense', like bigbadwolf said, is more appropiate. I've been to over 40
countries and lived the last 5 years in Germany. My impression is -in
general - that the more developed a country is, the more selfish,
individualistic and egoist its citizens are. Capitalism is selfishness.

BA is dirty and noisy. Yes. In my opinion the biggest problem is
the lack of justice. Justice is in Argentina very very slow,
ineficcient and corrupt. Everyone knows that and therefore attitudes
are very relaxed. Why would you pay your tax when you know that
anyways no one is going to do anything against you? Why would you pay
for parking your car on an estacionamiento when you can park on the
pedestrian crossing and no one is going to say anything? (even if you
are caught by the police you are very unlikely to have to pay the
bill). If at all there is some civic sense left, one has to attribute
it to the people. Solidarity exists in BA and holds all the pieces
together. Could you imagine what would happen in Rome (or even NY)
without law enforcement? Do you really think people behave better in
developed countries just because they have civic sense? They know that:
"El que las hace, las paga".BA is very european. Go to Roma,
Athens, Valencia, Barcelona and see whether those cities are any
cleaner / ordered / quieter than BA. One should compare BA to south
european cities and not to north european ones. Remember most
inmigrants came from Italy and Spain.

bigbadwolf, I think the figure of 40% having european genes is very
innacurate. I don't think there is someone in Argentina (not even the
guaraní aborigenes in Misiones province) without some traces of
european blood. I am not proud of it, I don't have any american blood
in me and I think it is really a pitty.And last, for those
feeling bad in BA: there are organizations fighting for civic rights.
That would be a possibility to help improve life quality in the city.
If you don't feel like that...well, Argentina is huge and has lots of
peaceful / beautiful places. And being an expat I just can say: a bit
of tolerance is always needed.

 

[bigbadwolf]

My impression is -in general - that the more developed a country is, the more selfish,
individualistic and egoist its citizens are. Capitalism is selfishness.

I concur. It's the nature of the beast.

Could you imagine what would happen in Rome (or even NY)
without law enforcement? Do you really think people behave better in
developed countries just because they have civic sense?

In racially homogeneous Nordic and North-East Asian states, yes they do. The same level of crime doesn't occur as in LA or NYC, and concomitantly, the same level of policing is not required. I think the USA is not a good model for comparison, particularly its increasingly diverse cities.

BA is very european. Go to Roma,
Athens, Valencia, Barcelona and see whether those cities are any
cleaner / ordered / quieter than BA. One should compare BA to south
european cities and not to north european ones. Remember most
inmigrants came from Italy and Spain.

Fair enough. It can claim to be similar to South European cities.

bigbadwolf, I think the figure of 40% having european genes is very
innacurate. I don't think there is someone in Argentina (not even the
guaraní aborigenes in Misiones province) without some traces of
european blood. I am not proud of it, I don't have any american blood
in me and I think it is really a pitty.

It's only what I read. But it does sound plausible, if one glances at the faces of Portenos. There are varying amounts of European blood in the people. Note also that the demographics are changing with the unabated influx of Paraguayans and Bolivians.

 

[armbou]

A little joke for ya'll...

There is an American driving against traffic down Avenida del Libertador. Tons of chaos around. The driver is listening to the radio when an emergency broadcast alerts drivers about "a deranged man driving against traffic down Avenida del Libertador." The driver shouts at the radio, "one? There's a million of them!"

Food for thought.

 

[maskow]

Good lord. Is this thread STILL running?"Selfish". For Christ's sake. That word is really all you need to know about any extranjero that applies it to describe people and societies outside his/her own country.We are being schooled here, friends and lovers of living outside the familiar places of our birth and rearing. Let us learn well from these unhappy folks.Everyone needs a place to let off steam...and maybe the fine forum here at BAEG is much better than most.However, I personally know some of these types...and they are not pretty. I'm not talking physically, mind you; some of them are quite beautiful. It doesn't take long, though, before you realize a few things about them.I wrote in an earlier (sheesh! 5 days ago!) post about being here voluntarily. I think I was a little too tough in my "love it or leave it" stance. I remember being pelted with that over and over during my ilk's opposition to the war in Vietnam. It wasn't fair and it didn't feel good to be on the receiving end of it. That then was my country, though. This is not. What I'd like to say about some of the people I've met is: many of our fellow extranjeros that we all meet are not here on a precisely voluntary basis, no matter what they tell you. There are many aparently well-heeled refugees from circumstances that they would prefer never to have fled...if only things had turned out differently. This is, after all, the cheapest outpost of former empire that any urbane individual would "choose" to relocate to. Don't forget to include among this group the spouses of executive relocats.You begin to hear it in their voices after not too long. You begin to hear the grating between them and this place from which, for whatever reason, they can not escape. A nonsequitur comment here and there; the slip of a slur; the phrase, "these people" escapes them from time to time and one can then easily separate them from those of us that find endless joy in all the lovely differences and seeming disorders of this "Paris of the Palm Trees."They, however, are not physically separated from we who enjoy simply being here and are happy for our decision to come and stay.They (and sometimes we!) tend to gravitate to groups of fellow foreigners. They will, sooner or later, make a tentative effort to discern any dissatifaction on your part as well as the occasional attempt to burst your "naive bubble."Read this thread carefully. This thread will help you identify people that you do not want to associate with on a terribly frequent basis: their funk is deadly contagious.
Don't get me wrong. Many if not most of their group are spendid individuals that anyone would be proud to call friends and/or aquaintances...if only things had turned out differently for them.

 

[nikad]

It is obvious to me that many expats ar not here voluntarily, but because they failed to succeed in their own country in terms of income, health insurance, social relationships, etc, I would suggest these people just zip it and do not call names to the people and country that are feeding you and your families nowadays. If you don´t like it here, go home!

 

[Mitch]

It is obvious to me that many expats ar not here voluntarily, but because they failed to succeed in their own country in terms of income, health insurance, social relationships, etc, I would suggest these people just zip it and do not call names to the people and country that are feeding you and your families nowadays. If you don´t like it here, go home!

Funny, I feel the same way about the Argentinians who move to the US and bash Americans all the time.

 

[perry]

Im sure most expats in argentina who have been here for a year are running a business here investing their capital into the country and I dont see how Argentina is feeding them as one commentator said here.
Its funny but arent there 4 million argentines living outside of argentina mostly in Miami and Barcelona and in Argentina today there are maybe 100 thousand european expatriates most with a lot of disposable income contributing greatly to the argentine economy.. They are entitled to express their opinions like any other group in this society since they pay taxes and employ people.
As everyone knows there is no social security system here for newcomers like Europe so certainly they are not taking any money from anyone.

 

[nikad]

It is obvious to me that many expats ar not here voluntarily, but because they failed to succeed in their own country in terms of income, health insurance, social relationships, etc, I would suggest these people just zip it and do not call names to the people and country that are feeding you and your families nowadays. If you don´t like it here, go home!
Funny, I feel the same way about the Argentinians who move to the US and bash Americans all the time.

I agree with youV

 

[gracielle]

"It is obvious to me that many expats ar not here voluntarily, but
because they failed to succeed in their own country in terms of income,
health insurance, social relationships, etc". I beg to differ, these people ARE here voluntarily. There are other countries in the world where they could go.

The social security system here is by no means comparable to
that of the US, but it does exist. Expats under the age of 60 can
partake of it by soliciting a CUIT number. It is called
"monotributo"....similar to the "independent contractor" category in
the IRS code. It is "mandatory" for people working, such as someone
teaching English, to sign up. The monthly contribution ranges from
$95-99 {Category A and B}pesos per month for those with an annual
income of less than $12,000 pesos. If earnings are greater, see the
table of mandatory contributions.

http://www.afip.gov.ar/ - info on the CUIT

http://www.sssalud.gov.ar - for list of health plans

You are contributing to your retirement plan. Plus you are enrolling in a trade union health plan from the approved list
included in the cost. Your dependents can also enroll at an additional
cost of $25 pesos per month per person. But you don't have to be a
member of the trade union. You don't even have to actually declare an
income on any given year. But you must file a annual
"declaration".....which is very different from what you do in the
states. For the details of this filing, first obtain the professional
opinion of a "contador publico".

Many locals "bypass" this mechanism because they prefer to work
in the black. They need the money NOW to make ends meet. Also there is
little trust in the local SS system. Yet they know that when they
retire, they will be included in the minimum "pension" plan plus PAMI
{Medicare}benefits. The gov't in power at the time will offer a "golden
parachute" to capture the stray sheep. I am not an advocate of
this plan...but it is an alternative. I don't even care to comment
about the pros and cons of not paying taxes. My intent is to answer the
post that....."As everyone knows there is no social security system here for
newcomers like Europe so certainly they are not taking any money from
anyone". Yes, they are taking something. In any country, undeclared income is penalized by their tax code.As
to the comment about Argentinians who are living abroad, they whine and
wail as any expat here....about taxes, politics, etc. Many would like
to return to live in BA..... but earning US salaries....and enjoying
the buying power of the dollar. Nice dream, but not very
practical...... until you retire.