Argentina Ranked #160 In World For Economic Freedom

[scotttswan]

It would be useful to see some charts here of Argentina vs Chile . GDP per capita, median income, total debt, etc. over the last several years to see the trends.

GDP per capita
http://www.google.co...&ind=false

GDP
http://www.google.co...&ind=false

Life expectancy
http://www.google.co...&ind=false


Internet users as percentage of population
http://www.google.co...&ind=false


Poverty headcount ratio - $2 a day
http://www.google.co...&ind=false

There's lots more options there. Although data is missing for some of the earlier and latest stats

*edit* As camberiu says. We all know the stats have been doctored but these are the best we have

 

[jp]

How about instead of just rejecting each and every clear and logical cited-data supported point that camberiu makes, you instead show us why you think that access to education and health care is inferior in Chile.

Basic literacy and life expectancy are top line stats that provide very little detail about a nation's education or healthcare system, other than suggest that a system exists in some form.

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Nevermind PhilipDT. He keeps changing the goal post. First he wanted me to how that the statement "[/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]"[/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]In Chile you have a lot of population excluded, without any decent access to health or education" [/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]was incorrect. Now he talks about levels of education being equal between the two countries, etc...He basically does not want to be wrong,[/background]

Don't make assumptions, its not helpful to discussion. I challenged the stats you posted because I didn't feel they supported your argument.

Having done some reading it seems that my impression of what services are freely available in Chile was out dated. Reforms in healthcare have lead to much greater coverage, and lower income groups now have free access to comprehensive medical care.

Its still true that Argentina offers citizens free tertiary education, whilst Chile does not. But I was under the impression there was very little access to free secondary education in Chile. It seems that there is free access, but there are concerns regarding the quality of public schools compared to private schools.

 

[PhilipDT]

but there are concerns regarding the quality of public schools compared to private schools.

That is hardly unique to chile.

 

[Jaredberryman]

We can talk here about forms of government, socialist, hands off capitalism, etc., etc., but the truth of the matter is, that in Argentina, until there are enough virtuous/ethical people, things will not get better. The problem of economic disparity is a moral problem, not a system problem (although the moral part infiltrates into the system). When the people in charge, and the people beneath them, all refuse to take advantage of the poor, charge usury rates on loans, and generally not be despicable, then those issues quickly come to an end. Argentina's problem is not the system--it's the corruption on every level. There are plenty of virtuous people, but not enough. There are a few rare honest politicians, but those are few and far between. Until people in this country decide to quit robbing, cheating, and stealing from each other in every way, things will continue to spiral downward.

I recall a few months ago seeing on the news how a group of robbers hurriedly assaulted a rapipago, and left some of the money and other things in their quick flight on the floor. A woman who was a client at the rapipago came into the store. She proceeded to pick up the money and take it as her own. Completely despicable, and taking advantage of the couple that owned the little store. This kind of behavior is commonplace in Argentina, and no one was really that surprised by the lady's actions. This is the way so many (not all people of course!) people think and act. Me, myself, and I.

This is the way the current people in the government act, for the most part. These were all officials that were supporters of Menem and went right along with him. They are not in this to help people or put a better system in place. They are in it for themselves. Cristina Kirchner has stolen from the Argentine people in a thousand ways, and all of the people she has put in office. It's really pathetic. Even if these people have put a better model in place (which I really don't think they have), they have cheated and stolen, and are just like all the politicians who have come before in Argentina. Ideology is not what makes a great leader. Actions are what make a great leader.

 

[nicoenarg]

Agree with most everything you've said Jaredberryman. First time I looked at the interest rates here, my head started spinning. However, abnormally high interest rates on loans can and should be explained in light of inflation here. Banks want to make a profit. There's nothing wrong with that. They're not charities. All businesses are around to make a profit...funny enough so are all the employees working for those businesses. So as much as the interest rate here drives me crazy, I can also understand why its that high.

Like you said, the government is corrupt and that needs to be fixed and again, its not like the people here are not responsible for the kind of government they put in place. I hadn't heard about the story you wrote about above about rapipago and the lady. But reading it doesn't surprise me much and that's sad.

 

[jasonn1234]

We can talk here about forms of government, socialist, hands off capitalism, etc., etc., but the truth of the matter is, that in Argentina, until there are enough virtuous/ethical people, things will not get better.

With all due respect, I have to say that I find this to be a pretty arrogant and simple-minded statement. As if "the people" of one country are just inherently more honest than those of another?

In actuality, the reason you see the type of currupt and cynical behavior you describe in Argentina is that the system is so bureaucratized and inconsistently enforced that it's practically guaranteed to invite cronyism and legal exploitation. Due to how it's set up, you have to be "dishonest" (i.e. paying in negro, evading taxes, etc) just to compete in some markets in Argengina because if you don't, your competitors who just pay of the authorities and skirt the laws will outprice you. Meanwhile, the workers turn to opportunistic behaviour (lawsuits, strikes, etc) in retaliation and in order to try to maintain competitive wages/pay in a (poorly) managed economy where the market isn't allowed to balance things out. The precedent for the type of behavior you describe is set all the way from the top.

I think we agree with the fundamental principle you allude to - that "the fish rots from the head down" - however I think it's naïve to assume that the right leaders could somehow be immune to the consequences of a flawed system/ideology. Politicians and other government officials are corrupt practically everywhere - however in some systems they are given far more power/leeway than in others. Peronism (along with it's cousins, antecedents) just doesn't work very well. Failed experiment. It's high time for the Argentine government/economy to modernize along with the rest of the world...

 

[Jaredberryman]

With all due respect, I have to say that I find this to be a pretty arrogant and simple-minded statement. As if "the people" of one country are just inherently more honest than those of another?

In actuality, the reason you see the type of currupt and cynical behavior you describe in Argentina is that the system is so bureaucratized and inconsistently enforced that it's practically guaranteed to invite cronyism and legal exploitation. Due to how it's set up, you have to be "dishonest" (i.e. paying in negro, evading taxes, etc) just to compete in some markets in Argengina because if you don't, your competitors who just pay of the authorities and skirt the laws will outprice you. Meanwhile, the workers turn to opportunistic behaviour (lawsuits, strikes, etc) in retaliation and in order to try to maintain competitive wages/pay in a (poorly) managed economy where the market isn't allowed to balance things out. The precedent for the type of behavior you describe is set all the way from the top.

I think we agree with the fundamental principle you allude to - that "the fish rots from the head down" - however I think it's naïve to assume that the right leaders could somehow be immune to the consequences of a flawed system/ideology. Politicians and other government officials are corrupt practically everywhere - however in some systems they are given far more power/leeway than in others. Peronism (along with it's cousins, antecedents) just doesn't work very well. Failed experiment. It's high time for the Argentine government/economy to modernize along with the rest of the world...

I agree with much of what you are saying, but it's pretty far-reaching to call me arrogant and simple minded for such a statement. The politicians that run this society come from the people, and the people...are corrupt too. It's not just the ones up top who are corrupt. You can change the government, but you're likely going to get the same results. It may not be politically correct to claim that a large part of Argentines are corrupt and dishonest, but it is, unfortunately, true. Where I come from, you do not have to speak in hushed whispers with your friends and family that you are going on vacation so that the neighbors won't hear and rob you. You don't have to worry constantly that everyone around you will cheat and steal from you. It is like that in Argentina. There is a reason so many people are paranoid.

The problem is the people. The politicians come from the people, and politicians are a reflection of society's worst, because power corrupts. Argentina has had non-peronist governments, for example, like Alfonsin, or Menem (did not really have Peronist policies), but how did that go? The real problem in Argentina is simple, yet with complex repercussions--the human heart. Until people wake up and stop cheating each other, things will not change, no matter how you limit the government and change the rules. I agree that it's time to move on from Peronism, but let's be realistic--that will not truly change things.