Ba And Epidemic Corruption

[Pensador]

bajo, even though you seem to be an expert in law

If he was he surely would not have time to troll for work here.

 

[ElQueso]

Bajo, I'm not going to go into the travails of these guys I know because I don't want to discuss details of things like this in public. But what I know to be true is that these guys are stymied at every turn by thieving bureaucrats and other government officials in the course of trying to do honest business. If you want to do a business that makes any kind of decent money in this city, you have to deal with corrupt BS on a constant basis. This is also supported by a friend of mine who is a retired detective from the PFA, and he brings a whole other dimension of corruption to light upon having discussions about his time within the organization.

You can go on and on about money laundering and whatnot, but if anything, such an atmosphere exists because of the crap performed and allowed by the individuals who make up the government and its bureaucracy.

I have no reason to doubt your integrity as a lawyer. You take a lot of flack from folks on the forum, but I've never seen any reason to suspect that you are corrupt or support corruption, or even lack professionalism in your profession. I do, however, often wonder at some of the statements you make about the way things work. I've seen a lack of justice in this city that doesn't stack up with what you seem to experience. You seem to have a lot of success in your area of expertise, but you seem to somehow evade acknowledging certain realities that many see all around us.

My experience, and what I have seen of others', is from the receiving side of things, not from the side waving the sword on a white stallion. Your being involved with getting people citizenship, and your successes, perhaps leads you to feel that such justice exists in most other areas. I see people treated unfairly, going through lengthy arbitration and court appearances and rarely get any kind of justice. I see people taking advantage of the system and getting their own brand of justice, something personal and not social, sometimes paid for and when not, meted out inaccurately by the judges.

I don't have to go into details. Many I've written about previously, some I simply don't want to share the details. But there is enough of it that I've seen to make me understand that there is a deep cultural tendency towards corruption in this society, so much so that it is often sitting just at the edge of the border between shadow and light, and all one has to do is glance to see it.

I handle it, although it used to frustrate me something awful. I am aided in knowing many good people here as well, it's not all doom and gloom.

 

[EricLovesBA]

...
I deal with federal judges every day, i know most of them, only one ask me for a [bribe].
...

I seem to recall you offering that example once before on this forum, and I don't recall if I commented at the time. A public official asking for a bribe is pretty extreme risky behavior. It implies that they believe they are in a protected environment where they can operate with impunity. They are not only asking you, but probably asking many people, and continuing to get away with it. So this implies that not only are they corrupt, but the system around them is also corrupt.

The normal procedure for a bribe, to my mind, is that the person in a position of lesser power *offers* the bribe. The person who needs something sticks their neck out, and the person in power either accepts the offer or hangs you with it. So if one of the judges is openly asking you, how many more of them would accept a bribe if you offered it I wonder.

At the same time, the whole theme here I find a bit offensive as it seems to imply Argentina is "more" corrupt than other countries. Maybe in some ways it is, but I regard crime here to be more petty in a way, or perhaps less sophisticated than for example US giant bank corporations gambling away people's pension funds and recuperating the money through the taxes of the middle class. Centralized power seems to almost universally lead to some kind of corruption.

 

[Matt84]

Really Bajo the way the corruption of Argentina has even managed to work in your mind is amazing to me. You must live in some sort of altered sense of reality relating to what is going on around you to even post these things. Perhaps it is difficult for your distinguish between right and wrong I am not sure. Because most of us here are seeing loads of corruption but in your corrupted mentality corruption is contraband. ROFLOL I do not know if I should laugh or cry reading your posts.

Cry.

I've seen this behavior from many otherwise nice, liberal-minded people. They have figured out the ever-changing system in Argentina (or haven't figured out anything, just enjoy a support network of "friends" and connections, many of them in government-related positions) and can surf the Africanomics wave. Argentina is quiet stable and sometimes "full of opportunities" for these people.
They find from a well connected or well oiled friend the proper secret or byzantine procedure to import a single teddy bear or run a bar and then scorn those who fail at it and get trampled by the "authorities" as "they must have done something to deserve it" (like "contraband").
In many cases these same people tell me the horror stories of Argentina during the Junta and how the population was quiet complicit dismissing the desaparecidos with the same "excuse": They must have done something, otherwise they would not have been taken!
The political signs change but the attitude remains quiet the same.
In the same vein, I challenge you to find any Argentine who freely admits to having voted (twice!) for Mr Menem.

Btw, there's a price to pay for Uruguay's calm and relative low levels of corruption. Why don't you attempt a construction project in that quaint country and find out?!

 

[Pensador]

Btw, there's a price to pay for Uruguay's calm and relative low levels of corruption. Why don't you attempt a construction project in that quaint country and find out?!

I would not even dream of it because much of the same is here as far as the thinking goes but just not at the same level. The employer is at a disadvantage here also and much of same mentality in the employees. I can only imagine what else one might encounter and I surely have to no desire to encounter it. I have officially seen enough to not want to see anymore or expose myself to anymore of it.

 

[ElQueso]

[...]
At the same time, the whole theme here I find a bit offensive as it seems to imply Argentina is "more" corrupt than other countries. Maybe in some ways it is, but I regard crime here to be more petty in a way, or perhaps less sophisticated than for example US giant bank corporations gambling away people's pension funds and recuperating the money through the taxes of the middle class. Centralized power seems to almost universally lead to some kind of corruption.

The US has corruption, no doubt about it. In fact, it seems to get worse all the time, or perhaps that as one gets older one realizes what corruption is.

However, the big difference is where the corruption is. In the US, I never had to pay a police office to watch my house or my store, beyond the taxes I paid that were targeted to pay those police. Not saying there were no corrupt cops, but the police weren't paid so poorly that they were expected to make their living from those they were supposed to protect and the majority protected and served (sure, to varying degrees) without asking for payment. Although in some places inspectors may have been bribed, it wasn't the norm and they also did not earn a majority of their money from bribes and those who sought bribes were few and far between. I knew many people who had stores and other "public" businesses (such as construction companies, for example) and bribery was not the norm.

I managed construction sites in the late 80s, big ones. We had various kinds of inspectors that came out to inspect us and never had to offer a bribe to get past something. I was never asked by my boss to offer a bribe. My boss never offered a bribe, to my knowledge. We actually fixed whatever legitimate issue the inspectors found and went on about our business, which was good for us and the client.

And so on.

Here, everyone I know who has a business that has a public face (stores, bars, etc) and makes a bit of money, deals with corruption on a daily basis.

To say that Argentina is no more corrupt than the US is comparing apples to oranges. The corruption in the US is (was?) less damaging to people who want to open a business and have success (as an example), although the government control in the US is becoming as stifling as the corruption and government here together, I'll give you that. It's not a daily, individual corruption, but rather a natural consequence of centralized power in a government, aided, as usual, by people who think they know what's best for everyone else. But even as of today, because there is not such rampant personal corruption, it's still easier to do business in the US by a large degree, although I see that changing year-by-year.

Also, you made a comment about how bribes are offered, and I think you are fairly correct in that. I had a situation during my residency process some years ago that held up my approval for more than a year. My lawyer told me he thought we would have to pay a bribe to the judge (he suggested that I may have to buy a $1000 peso gift certificate from Falabella in the days when the Peso was 3-1 to the Dollar). He managed to work the issue out over the year's time. But had he been forced to go the bribe route, he was definitely going to have to offer the bribe to the judge - the judge would never have asked for it as I understood from my lawyer.

Others I've seen give bribes are always the ones to suggest it, never, ever the official.

The only bribe I've actually given in Buenos Aires, personally, was to a motorcycle cop who had his bike parked on the side of Cordoba during rush hour. I was somewhere near Uriburu if I remember correctly, where Cordoba makes its first big bend after Cerrito / 9 de julio. Traffic was at a near standstill and I received a call on my cellphone. I answered it and in the course of the conversation (it was my wife), I inched up close to the cop who was standing there watching traffic. When he saw me talking on my cellphone, he walked up to my car and pointed to my phone. I knew I was probably in trouble (this was when they were actually enforcing the new law about not talking on the cellphone while driving). I said goodbye to my wife and put the phone down. He proceeded to tell me that he was going to have to impound my car because I was talking on my cellphone. I was a bit worried because I had heard you couldn't bribe PFA here. This was some 7 years ago or so and I was still a bit naive about life here. But I'd had experience in Paraguay with police and decided to try to offer the cop here something. So I asked him if there wasn't any other way to deal with the problem than getting my car impounded. He asked me what I had in mind. I told him I had two hundred peso notes in my wallet that I didn't need and he told me that would be acceptable, that he would accept that as a "multa". When I pulled the bills out of my wallet he opened the palms of his hands down toward the ground and made a pushing motion, as if telling me to keep it down. He asked me to wrap the bills in a piece of paper or something and hand it to him in a casual manner. Once he had the package in his hand (I had a plastic bag in my car I used), he smiled and waved me on my way.

I would have never tried this in the US.

I don't own a business here with a public face, which is why this is the only bribe I've personally given. I have a number of friends who own businesses of different types and I have actually been present when pre-arranged bribes ("payments") have been handed over and have heard about many, many other situations.

 

[Matt84]

I would not even dream of it because much of the same is here as far as the thinking goes but just not at the same level. The employer is at a disadvantage here also and much of same mentality in the employees. I can only imagine what else one might encounter and I surely have to no desire to encounter it. I have officially seen enough to not want to see anymore or expose myself to anymore of it.

I know people who import seasonal workers (basically invites them as family guests) from Buenos Aires just to recycle an apartment in Punta del Este. Obviously in for profit operations, not just some paint. Then there's this guy who built a hostel in Rocha using exclusively voluntary workforce from tourists looking for life experience.
The Uruguayans who are not adverse to work have already migrated to the US or Europe, in some cases in the past, even to Argentina.
I don't now, it might be different in bustling Montevideo than in Rocha.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Elqueso, I appreciate you reply.

Life is not perfect, but institutions works in this country. But you have to move the gears.

The asserts of "pensador" are pure fantasy, this is not north Korea.

I represent mostly chinese citizens who entry illegaly. They have to deal with all kind of corrupt agents looking for bribes. My advice is to send them to hell and to take everything to Federal Courts.

So, i always complaint aboyt cheap criticism. You want a serious one? Here it is: corruption exist because people accept to pay bribes. They feed corruption.

I have seen 5 federal judges to quit since I started to work, and many high hierarchy employed lost their job. That is why the system works better now.

It is cheaper to make a hidden camera and send them to jail.
To ask for a bribe has a smalo penalty, the situation you mentioned has 10 years of jail.

Now i do citizenship but I have been prosecuting corrupt state agents since 2001. I used to prosecute police men involved in torture and assesination (fake shooting).

So, in my professional experience, they can work while they have low profile and you don't take the case to Court.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I seem to recall you offering that example once before on this forum, and I don't recall if I commented at the time. A public official asking for a bribe is pretty extreme risky behavior. It implies that they believe they are in a protected environment where they can operate with impunity. They are not only asking you, but probably asking many people, and continuing to get away with it. So this implies that not only are they corrupt, but the system around them is also corrupt.

The normal procedure for a bribe, to my mind, is that the person in a position of lesser power *offers* the bribe. The person who needs something sticks their neck out, and the person in power either accepts the offer or hangs you with it. So if one of the judges is openly asking you, how many more of them would accept a bribe if you offered it I wonder.

At the same time, the whole theme here I find a bit offensive as it seems to imply Argentina is "more" corrupt than other countries. Maybe in some ways it is, but I regard crime here to be more petty in a way, or perhaps less sophisticated than for example US giant bank corporations gambling away people's pension funds and recuperating the money through the taxes of the middle class. Centralized power seems to almost universally lead to some kind of corruption.

The way it works is different.

They try to create artificially a situation where you are defendless and then they make artificial silences to be offered a bribe. Instead, I appeal everything.

This particular judge, I think, is crazy. Because it might happend that they try, but when they realize there is no chance, they pretend nothing happends. Thus judge, instead, tried to extort me. I asked the Consejo de la Magistratura to test this judge Mental healh.

But, yes, that jurisdiction is the most corrupt of the Country, the same where Nisman's former wife is a judge. That is why she pretended to get the money of the undeclared bank acciunts for her children, black money. She doesn't even realize that it is illegal (because she is so corrupt) and that is how her political family now is under criminal investigation for money laundry.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Elqueso (2) you described how he lied to you.

If you say, well, ok, make the fine, he goes away. Or he make the fine, then you go to the "judge" (they are not exactly judges), and you offer to pay and complaint about the attempt of bribe and he goes to jail.

I use a camera full time in my car, they never try to f...k with me, but I think it is too obvious that I m a hard a...s.

In my former job, I made the investigation about the murders during 2001 rebelion and the police me who killed 2 person at Av. de mayo was trying to intimidate me because I discovered him.

When this failed, he ambushed me and a witness. He was so afraid that he didn't want to go to Court. i went to his home to convince him. Finally I did. When we where leaving the garage of his home, the police who killed 2 people and wounded many with a shotgun, ambushed us.

He got 3 bullets and I felt one bullet just a touching my nose. We are alive because I push the acelerator and we were able to escape the ambush.

We couldn't evidence it was him, but he spent the next 2 years in jail for boycotting the criminal investigation.

After that I decided to publish on National tv my investigation, the risk dissapeared:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz5AoVG-CW0

So, i might have many defects, but to be naive is not one of them.