Change in expat attitudes?

[Ries]

I think that if you came to Buenos Aires cause its cheap, you came for the wrong reasons, and you will soon leave.

But I also live near Vancouver, when I am in El Norte, and the concept that you can eat ANY meal in Vancouver of comparable quality for twenty eight bucks is riddicle doccle. RE-DICK-EL DOCK-EL. That means, absurd.

I can barely get away spending 20 bucks at the Richmond Night Market. And thats grease on a stick.

Any decent restaurant in Vancouver is gonna run 50 bucks a head. And there are plenty of restaurants in Van that cost triple that, with drinks.

I love eating in Vancouver, but a decent meal in a no name curry house in Punjabi Market is more expensive than La Cabrera, if you have a beer.

 

[gouchobob]

I don't find the steak arguments on either side very compelling. At least for me the cost of steaks restaurants isn't a major component in my cost of living. As far as day trips go there are a few things to see near B.A., but let's face it for hundreds of kilometers the landscape is about as exciting as Kansas. There are some nice mountains and other attractive things to see but not that close to B.A. To tout the interior is about like pointing to the rocky mountains as a reason to live in Chicago. As far as taxes go they are quite high in Argentina if you are actually paying what you are suppose to. Food beyond steaks is very limited although there are some very good restaurants there, although the number is remarkably small give the size of the city.

I don't understand why people always try to compare it to some expensive city in the U.S. or elsewhere and then pronounce B.A. as a bargain in comparison. I've never understood why anybody would live in San Francisco, New York, Vancouver, or some like super expensive city unless they can make a lot more money there than somewhere else. If you aren't making a lot more your standard of living is just going to be a lot lower. If you aren't making a lot more by the time you get done paying for the basics your lucky to have enough left for a good hot-dog, you can forget about taking advantage of a lot of what these expensive cities have to offer. The whole B.A. to these pricey places is always seems apples and oranges to me. I suppose if your income stays the same as one of these uber-expensive cities then B.A. is a bargain in comparison. But in comparison to the average of most cities in North America B.A. is no bargain today.

 

[syngirl]

$28 CAD doesn't leave much room for the 12 or 13% HST (whatever it is, I haven't lived in Vancouver for awhile), the ridiculous mark up on alcohol in restaurants in BC, and the 15-20% tip.

C$28 I'll allow for a plate, but not for a meal that includes any appetizer or booze -- or bottled water. In which case, can you real call that a "nice steak dinner"? I'd just call that a "nice steak entree"

Moving to BA because it's a bargain will not make you happy. But despite the crap on the streets, Palermo, Las Can, or Recoleta are a hell of a lot more interesting than Kits, Yaletown, or the West End. I mean, for god's sake, my mum lives on Richards and Davie and when I go home I don't even need earplugs because there's not a peep after about 8pm -- and that's in one of Vancouvers "hottest" neighbourhoods.

What I miss about Vancouver is the sports -- snowboarding and windsurfing -- and the variety of ethnic food. But when you go back there from here it is DEAD, there is NO ONE around, it's a tiny little village that likes to pretend it's cosmopolitan.

 

[marksoc]

I've never understood why anybody would live in San Francisco, New York, Vancouver, or some like super expensive city unless they can make a lot more money there than somewhere else.

Culture. You want to go into a cinema in Paris and find Godard seated there savouring an early Billy Wilder movie; you want to go to Creamfields in BA, or to one of the 150? theater plays in this weekend, or to a cinema festival, or to a concert, or to a nice party, or to have a job in the cultural or high-tech industry, very concentrated in the big cities. And that is why we live in BA, NYC, Paris, Berlin.

 

[sergio]

The price of a steak dinner is not all that important as I see it. What matters to me is the reality that Argentina is now a much tougher country in which to earn a living -- unless you earn dollars or some other hard currency. Like a lot of Argentines, my ability to maintain the same standard of living dropped a few years ago. Expats who have more than enough money to live well in BA are lucky and I wish them well but the reality is simply different for most people.

 

[Amargo]

Like a lot of Argentines, my ability to maintain the same standard of living dropped a few years ago.

It has happened as long as I am in Argentina. These economic cycles push people to earn as much as they can in the short periods of growth, so that they can 'survive' the crisis. That also pushes forward inflation and is one of the reasons why so many low-quality items are priced so high. At least that's my opinion.

 

[gouchobob]

Culture. You want to go into a cinema in Paris and find Godard seated there savouring an early Billy Wilder movie; you want to go to Creamfields in BA, or to one of the 150? theater plays in this weekend, or to a cinema festival, or to a concert, or to a nice party, or to have a job in the cultural or high-tech industry, very concentrated in the big cities. And that is why we live in BA, NYC, Paris, Berlin.

My point is that you really can't take advantage of a lot of stuff these expensive cities unless you have the income to match. If you can make significantly more and you enjoy a big city you can afford it and enjoy it. If you aren't making a lot extra I doubt your cultural experience is any great shakes as you won't be able to afford it, and that you would be better off in a less expensive city maybe with fewer opportunities but more that you can actually take advantage of from an affordability standpoint. Some but not all jobs are concentrated in large cities. I for example would rather live in a city with half the cost of NYC for example even if my salary is 20-30% less than what I would make there. It a matter of personal preference.

 

[duanestorey]

But I also live near Vancouver, when I am in El Norte, and the concept that you can eat ANY meal in Vancouver of comparable quality for twenty eight bucks is riddicle doccle. RE-DICK-EL DOCK-EL. That means, absurd.

I can barely get away spending 20 bucks at the Richmond Night Market. And thats grease on a stick.

I don't really want to start an argument about where restaurant food is cheaper. Clearly food is cheaper here. I also think there are many great things about Buenos Aires, things that don't exist in Vancouver, and things I have definitely enjoyed here.

But I still don't see the restaurant comparisons you are drawing, and I used to live in downtown Vancouver for five years. Yes, there are some very expensive restaurants, but very few of the locals eat there, just like very few of the locals here eat at La Cabrera. I went for sushi here and it cost about $25 USD for the meal in Palermo. You'll pay about the same as that in any normal, non-touristy sushi place in Vancouver, and it's better sushi. The steak I had at Don Julio in Palermo cost 65 pesos for the steak, and once we added a salad and a side (both come with many meals back home), it was a 100 peso meal - and truthfully, I didn't think it was that great. If you want to eat mostly pizza and pasta, then yes, it's cheaper. But if I had to choose between paying $15 for a meal that was "not bad" or $25 for a meal that was really good, I'd choose the latter. I just haven't found food here that tasty or exciting.

In terms of not being able to get a meal in Vancouver for $28, I really don't know where you are eating. Here's the menu for the Cactus Club on Robson (the heart of downtown):

http://www.cactusclubcafe.com/2007/pdf/bc/ccMenu-vancouver-robson.pdf

You'll see most main dishes are less than $30 (as are many of the steaks), and they come with a side and a salad.

 

[TomAtAlki]

Yes, well $30 becomes $50, don't forget tax and tip.
Nancy

 

[earlyretirement]

I agree that most ex-pats don't last too long in Buenos Aires. I'm one of the exceptions. I've lived in Buenos Aires full time over 7 years now but I'm one of the ones leaving for good. I'm moving back to the USA next month. I'll always love Argentina but people would be in denial if they tried to say things aren't getting worse here.

I'm sure I'll always be connected to Argentina and will always love it. Warts and all.

One of the main reasons we decided to move was we had 2 kids (both born in Argentina and they are "portenos". I don't think Buenos Aires is a good place to raise kids. And petty crime is definitely on the increase. We also have a good friend that is very wealthy that had their daughter kidnapped and ransomed so that isn't something we want to have to deal with. Apparently amongst the wealthy, this happens often and never gets reported to the police.

You all like to throw out statistics and say how statistically BA is safer than many cities but it's a bit of nonsense because most people that get robbed do NOT go to the police to report it. The people that kidnapped our friend's daughter and threatened to kill her even bragged they were working with the police. Police officers have also been caught in serious crimes and bank robberies here.

Since the judicial system doesn't function in Argentina, these criminals can continue to do this at free will. Have any of you ever tried to deal with the legal system here???? It does NOT work.

Besides the crime, however, I can't in good conscious raise my kids in Buenos Aires. As much as I love Argentina, there is tremendous corruption here and the way locals won't hesitate to cheat you or con you is normal here. I don't want to raise my kids in this kind of environment.

It's not even a matter of it getting more expensive or cost of living situation with us as we are moving to one of the most expensive cities in the USA. However, I will say when it was so cheap it was easy to look the other way and make excuses that it's so cheap here that it was worth it to put up with the red tape and inefficiencies. That isn't the case anymore with the 25% to 30% inflation per year. The run away inflation is going to cause more problems here.

Also, forget about running a company here. The laws all work against you for having employees. If you work in the "white" and legal here it's darn tough to make money here. The right hand never knows what the left hand is doing. The banking system is broken. The judicial system is broken. And on and on and on.

From my extensive experience in Argentina living here the past 7 years and owning several businesses in town. I'd say Argentina is ideal for people that are living on a pension or have disability or SS payments that need to live on a fixed income that they get in dollars/euros/sterling/etc. Where if you had enough money to pay for a property free and clear with cash you can live very well as utilities are dirt cheap here and subsidized by the government.

Things like electricity, water, gas are VERY cheap here. Condo fees are going up with inflation each year about 25% to 30% a year however. But the actual utilities besides high-speed internet are cheap. Internet is about the same price as the USA and service pretty much sucks here compared to most first world countries.

Good for those that do NOT need to work here or do not own a company here. Owning a company here is a major hassle and the laws here all work against you. The mandatory 25% to 30% a year raises (depending on which union you are in) are crazy and makes budgeting impossible.

It can also be good for those that work over the phone/internet and can make income in the currency back home.

But even for those people, there are the other issues like the lack of variety of food compared to the USA can get old. Most restaurants basically have the same menu. Yeah, there are some ethnic restaurants but they are few and far between.

Grocery stores here suck compared to the USA and not much variety and now dealing with import bans. Also always seems to be tons of line. Lines in super markets, lines in post office. Sometimes it can feel like waiting in a line all the time. Sure, we have a full-time maid and we can send her but on the weekends I like going and picking out my own things at places like Jumbo but now that they are banning all the imported stuff there are less and less things.

Also, air quality here is horrible compared to most cities in the USA. Traffic is horrible here and drivers have no respect for pedestrians..not even mothers with strollers! I've been all over the world and I've never met worse and impolite and impatient drivers that do NOT respect basic common sense rules of the road and also have such a lack of respect for pedestrians.

Again, I'm not trying to knock Buenos Aires as I really love it and always will. But there are serious problems in this country. When I moved here, I assumed that Argentina had the potential to change. But the longer I live here, the longer I realize that I will probably never see systematic change in my lifetime here in Argentina. (And keep in mind I'm not such an old guy... still in my late 30's).

Some things I will miss but I can always come down here. Even though I'm leaving I will keep the properties I own here so I always have a place to stay.