Change in expat attitudes?

[steveinbsas]

I agree that most ex-pats don't last too long in Buenos Aires. I'm one of the exceptions. I've lived in Buenos Aires full time over 7 years now but I'm one of the ones leaving for good. I'm moving back to the USA next month. I'll always love Argentina but people would be in denial if they tried to say things aren't getting worse here.

I'm sure I'll always be connected to Argentina and will always love it. Warts and all.

One of the main reasons we decided to move was we had 2 kids (both born in Argentina and they are "portenos". I don't think Buenos Aires is a good place to raise kids. And petty crime is definitely on the increase. We also have a good friend that is very wealthy that had their daughter kidnapped and ransomed so that isn't something we want to have to deal with. Apparently amongst the wealthy, this happens and never gets reported to the police.

You all like to throw out statistics and say how statistically BA is safer than many cities but it's a bit o nonsense because most people that get robbed do NOT go to the police to report it. The people that kidnapped our friend's daughter and threatened to kill her even bragged they were working with the police. Police officers have also been caught in serious crimes and bank robberies here.

Since the judicial system doesn't function in Argentina, these criminals can continue to do this.

Besides the crime, however, I can't in good conscious raise my kids in Buenos Aires. As much as I love Argentina, there is tremendous corruption here and the way locals won't hesitate to cheat you or con you is normal here. I don't want to raise my kids in this kind of environment.

It's not even a matter of it getting more expensive or cost of living situation with us as we are moving to one of the most expensive cities in the USA. However, I will say when it was so cheap it was easy to look the other way and make excuses that it's so cheap here that it was worth it to put up with the red tape and inefficiencies. That isn't the case anymore with the 25% to 30% inflation per year. The run away inflation is going to cause more problems here.

Also, forget about running a company here. The laws all work against you for having employees. If you work in the "white" and legal here it's darn tough to make money here. The right hand never knows what the left hand is doing. The banking system is broken. The judicial system is broken. And on and on and on.

From my extensive experience in Argentina living here the past 7 years and owning several businesses in town. I'd say Argentina is ideal for people that are living on a pension or have disability or SS payments that need to live on a fixed income that they get in dollars/euros/sterling/etc. Where if you had enough money to pay for a property free and clear with cash you can live very well as utilities are dirt cheap here and subsidized by the government.

Good for those that do NOT need to work here or do not own a company here. Owning a company here is a major hassle and the laws here all work against you. The mandatory 25% to 30% a year raises (depending on which union you are in) are crazy and makes budgeting impossible.

It can also be good for those that work over the phone/internet and can make income in the currency back home.

But even for those people, there are the other issues like the lack of variety of food compared to the USA can get old. Most restaurants basically have the same menu. Yeah, there are some ethnic restaurants but they are few and far between.

Grocery stores here suck compared to the USA and not much variety and now dealing with import bans.

Also, air quality here is horrible compared to most cities in the USA. Traffic is horrible here and drivers have no respect for pedestrians..not even mothers with strollers!

Again, I'm not trying to knock Buenos Aires as I really love it and always will. But there are serious problems in this country. When I moved here, I assumed that Argentina had the potential to change. But the longer I live here, the longer I realize that I will probably never see systematic change in my lifetime here in Argentina.

Some things I will miss but I can always come down here. Even though I'm leaving I will keep the properties I own here so I always have a place to stay.

This is the best post I've ever read in this forum.

 

[ptolemy]

This is the best post I've ever read in this forum.

I agree.....I'm leaving too but it will take at least a year to disinvest.

 

[fifs2]

I agree.....I'm leaving too but it will take at least a year to disinvest.

Agreed..the 7 year itch is alive and well...and "its definitely not me, it's you", I say to BsAs. Love you lots but you need serious therapy!

 

[earlyretirement]

This is the best post I've ever read in this forum.

Thanks Steve for such kind words. I appreciate those words.

I just hope my post comes across the right way. I've read a few posts by what seems like spiteful foreigners that come here, get beaten down by the mess that can be Argentina and they lash out. I'm not one of those people.

I'm one of the fortunate ones that was successful in Argentina. But I know I'm not in the majority. Argentina is a brutally tough place to do business. You can read that over and over and not think that can be true. But the facts are coming here on vacation and living here day in and day out are two different things.

You'd think I'd get use to the inefficiencies, red tape, hassles, horrible banking system, non-functional judicial system. But the facts are that not a day goes by that I think to myself this is a bit maddening how the locals can be and how the system is broken.

I never once got used to it even after living here all these years. And the sad part is that this craziness is "normal" to a Porteno. Most don't realize that it's NOT normal until they move out of Argentina and see how the first world works and how efficient other countries are.

If you do something or get conned or get robbed and you might tell a story to a local, they will tell you how it was your fault for not being more careful. That is THEIR "normal".

I have hundreds of examples, especially with the company. I've seen cases and where friends that own companies, have workers that get caught drinking on the job and fire them. The worker gets some scumbag lawyer and still ends up winning.

The labor laws need to be changed as well. It's totally broken.

I'm not saying that you can't have a good quality of life here. Because you most certainly can. In fact, maybe when I'm older and fully retired, and my kids are out of the house I'll move back to Buenos Aires. For those that don't work, have plenty of income, etc. it can be nice.

I mean you have some luxuries like having a full time maid for less than $500 US a month..... a chef for $500 a month. Heck, even if you have tons of money, most people in other parts of the world can't get those things.... Things like that are nice.

But with the runaway inflation, I have a feeling there is going to be a domino effect of problems here and crime will continue to go up. I'm not saying I think Buenos Aires is a dangerous place. Because I certainly don't. But when you have insane inflation like this it causes another set of problems.

 

[PabloAriel]

JFYI, labor laws are being "fixed" after the '76 coup d'état and the liberalism of the '90s.

 

[gouchobob]

Thanks Steve for such kind words. I appreciate those words.

I just hope my post comes across the right way. I've read a few posts by what seems like spiteful foreigners that come here, get beaten down by the mess that can be Argentina and they lash out. I'm not one of those people.

I'm one of the fortunate ones that was successful in Argentina. But I know I'm not in the majority. Argentina is a brutally tough place to do business. You can read that over and over and not think that can be true. But the facts are coming here on vacation and living here day in and day out are two different things.

You'd think I'd get use to the inefficiencies, red tape, hassles, horrible banking system, non-functional judicial system. But the facts are that not a day goes by that I think to myself this is a bit maddening how the locals can be and how the system is broken.

I never once got used to it even after living here all these years. And the sad part is that this craziness is "normal" to a Porteno. Most don't realize that it's NOT normal until they move out of Argentina and see how the first world works and how efficient other countries are.

If you do something or get conned or get robbed and you might tell a story to a local, they will tell you how it was your fault for not being more careful. That is THEIR "normal".

I have hundreds of examples, especially with the company. I've seen cases and where friends that own companies, have workers that get caught drinking on the job and fire them. The worker gets some scumbag lawyer and still ends up winning.

The labor laws need to be changed as well. It's totally broken.

I'm not saying that you can't have a good quality of life here. Because you most certainly can. In fact, maybe when I'm older and fully retired, and my kids are out of the house I'll move back to Buenos Aires. For those that don't work, have plenty of income, etc. it can be nice.

I mean you have some luxuries like having a full time maid for less than $500 US a month..... a chef for $500 a month. Heck, even if you have tons of money, most people in other parts of the world can't get those things.... Things like that are nice.

But with the runaway inflation, I have a feeling there is going to be a domino effect of problems here and crime will continue to go up. I'm not saying I think Buenos Aires is a dangerous place. Because I certainly don't. But when you have insane inflation like this it causes another set of problems.

I agree with all of your points, very good summary of the problems of living in Argentina. I guess its up to each individual to decide when the negatives outweigh the positives. I came to the conclusion that the negatives outweighed the positives as well but only after a couple of years. Some day change will come but I agree it may not be in our lifetimes. Its a country with enormous potential and I hope someday it will be realized.

 

[bellakoerfer]

I still love it but slowly the bad attitude, super inflation and bad food are driving me crazy, so Brazil here we come !

 

[allcraz]

I'd just like to balance it out a bit and vote for the "I love BsAs" party. I've been here over 4 years and I'm here to stay. Married to an Argentine and we have never even considered moving to the States (my home.) I want to say something without sounding haughty. If you don't speak the language fluently, (I'm talking being at a table full of Argentines and truly understanding 96% and being able to join the convo with the same stamina) I'm going to go right ahead and tell you that it's one of your #1 problems if you are part of the other voting party. I'm not saying speaking castellano will keep you from getting robbed, but you become part of this place in a way that you will never experience otherwise; and that experience gives you a whole new look on the community. Before you all jump on me, I'm sure that some of you who are expressing disdain do speak that well.

 

[gouchobob]

I'd just like to balance it out a bit and vote for the "I love BsAs" party. I've been here over 4 years and I'm here to stay. Married to an Argentine and we have never even considered moving to the States (my home.) I want to say something without sounding haughty. If you don't speak the language fluently, (I'm talking being at a table full of Argentines and truly understanding 96% and being able to join the convo with the same stamina) I'm going to go right ahead and tell you that it's one of your #1 problems if you are part of the other voting party. I'm not saying speaking castellano will keep you from getting robbed, but you become part of this place in a way that you will never experience otherwise; and that experience gives you a whole new look on the community. Before you all jump on me, I'm sure that some of you who are expressing disdain do speak that well.

I agree with you that masterly of the language in any foreign country is key in making you feel more at home. However, in my case the wife who is a native Spanish speaker (whose father was Argentine with many relatives still there) is the one who came disenchanted before I did. Your situation is ideal from a personal standpoint. Do you work or own a business there? If you are retired or your income is from outside of Argentina you are probably likely to stay happy as long as it keeps up with inflation(hard to do). I think Argentina is a very hard place to make long-term plans in.

 

[allcraz]

I agree with you that masterly of the language in any foreign country is key in making you feel more at home. However, in my case the wife who is a native Spanish speaker (whose father was Argentine with many relatives still there) is the one who came disenchanted before I did. Your situation is ideal from a personal standpoint. Do you work or own a business there? If you are retired or your income is from outside of Argentina you are probably likely to stay happy as long as it keeps up with inflation(hard to do). I think Argentina is a very hard place to make long-term plans in.

gauchobob, I work on my own but earn in pesos. So financial ease is not the smile on my face. I should have included that fact in my original post. So many posters assume others love it because of that situation, but it's not my case.