Change in expat attitudes?

[sergio]

I feel like this thread has little context... violent crime compared to where?? I moved from Miami, and I feel much safer in Buenos Aires, not to mention it's much easier to get around without a car and many less people carry guns here. Inflation is up and it's not as cheap as it once was here, but it certainly isn't any easier for my friends back home (who can't find jobs and are moving around looking for work). Which cities are you all relocating or planning to relocate to??

Yes, there is unemployment in countries like the US. Not good at all but there is some help. Unemployment benefits are pretty generous and go on a LONG time. The option of moving around is a great plus. In Argentina if you can't find work in BA you have virtually NO options. It is the rare person who leaves BA for a job in the provinces. Quite the reverse. Times are bad in the US but it is relative. There are infinitely more opportunities than in Argentina.

 

[Johnny]

No, the corruption in BA is everywhere. It's simply NOT the same in the US, UK or other developed countries I am familiar with.

Tell that to the people in the USA who lost tons of money due to the fraud perpetrated by corporations, continued gouging by the pharma companies, etc. and etc. The fraud and corruption in the states is more corporate in nature, carried out by the gleaming, well coiffed, bright toothed sociopaths who are freakin' everywhere. You bet, Argentina has plenty of neer do wells, but they are most often in broad daylight, and unless you are unlucky, often pretty easy to avoid. There ain't no avoiding them in the states and some of the other major industrialized countries.

For those of you who don't see it I suggest you get a grip on your level of denial. And, I'm from the states for whatever difference that might make.

 

[gouchobob]

At the risk of being ridiculed by the usual suspects the worse thing I felt about Argentina was lack of hope which I found depressing. After being there for a year or so I had the feeling things were going in the wrong direction, government, crime, daily living hassles, peoples attitudes, etc. That this wasn't going to change anytime soon. That the country was in continuing economic and social decline and that conditions were probably going to worsen over time, which is more or less what has happened since I left. The situation there makes any long term plans or living there permanently a very difficult prospect. When I reached this conclusion I sold out and left and have no regrets about doing so. At least in my case it was more than just the cost of living. There are some good things there and some really bad stuff. The bad stuff at the moment seems to be weighing more that the good stuff.

Hopefully this will change sometime in the future, Argentina could be a very successful country with a bright future under the right conditions.

 

[Johnny]

I feel the same. When I lived in Barcelona I had a lot more experiences there with crime than I've had here. I caught people with their hands literally inside my purse twice, had someone attempt to steal my suitcase filled with all of my belongings in a train station, had a friend slammed into a wall and robbed right in front of my apartment door, had a friend get literally chased through a metro station...all in all, I have had issues here but far less than in Spain. These kind of things happen everywhere, they just feel like a shock since it's so different than "home"...at least it is a lot different than my 14k population small town home.

Agreed about Barcelona. I spent time there and the snatch and grab in Barca tends to much more aggressive than here. There are some really nasty folks working the Rambla and the surrounding areas.

 

[sergio]

I lived in Miami for 5 years of my life and totally disagree with you about the violent crime comparison. I do agree about the car of course...this city having a subway system and buses that "normal" people use and not just the "poor" as in the USA...although...as you point out...I am sure a LOT MORE people in the USA are discovering the public transit system (and not by choice)!

I have always been a supporter of mass transit. In New York everyone uses subways and buses, all social classes. In other American cities it varies. In many places it is mostly the poor or elderly. The fact is that Americans like CARS and they can afford to have one or more. Argentines like cars too and they buy them IF they have the money. The extensive transportation in BA has more to do with the relative poverty than any virtue. If virtue were the issue buses would be equipped so as not to pollute as they do. They'd also be quieter. Trains would be decent and safe which MOST are not, maybe the Tigre line but not much else.

 

[sergio]

Tell that to the people in the USA who lost tons of money due to the fraud perpetrated by corporations, continued gouging by the pharma companies, etc. and etc. The fraud and corruption in the states is more corporate in nature, carried out by the gleaming, well coiffed, bright toothed sociopaths who are freakin' everywhere. You bet, Argentina has plenty of neer do wells, but they are most often in broad daylight, and unless you are unlucky, often pretty easy to avoid. There ain't no avoiding them in the states and some of the other major industrialized countries.

For those of you who don't see it I suggest you get a grip on your level of denial. And, I'm from the states for whatever difference that might make.

No doubt about it -- there is corporate corruption iN the US. Greed is a problem too but it doesn't necessarily take the form of cheating. For all their faults American govt officials do not usually steal from the Treasury. Cheating is a part of everyday life in Argentina. It is NOT in the US and when corruption occurs as in Enron, there is a public outcry. In Argentina everyone shrugs their shoulders. Nothing new.

 

[gsi16386]

No doubt about it -- there is corporate corruption iN the US. Greed is a problem too but it doesn't necessarily take the form of cheating. For all their faults American govt officials do not usually steal from the Treasury. Cheating is a part of everyday life in Argentina. It is NOT in the US and when corruption occurs as in Enron, there is a public outcry. In Argentina everyone shrugs their shoulders. Nothing new.

Agreed, it's actually gotten to the point down here where it's a race to see who can cheat the most out of anyone and everyone. From the politicians, to the local Verdureria, florists, gyms, cabbies, bartenders, your local cable provider (in my case Telecentro who won't return a deposit i gave them 6 months ago), and the list goes on and on...

It's like you have to be on your toes at all times and my damn feet are getting tired...

 

[rockbodyrock]

I used to live in BsAs, and now return every year or so to visit, and i am always shocked on how much things have gone up in such a short span. I was thinking of relocating to bsas again when the time was right, but lately I have been thinking about Santiago, Chile, since i know a few people that are doing quite well over there.

 

[clooz]

As Citygirl said, most expats only last a year or two. And I'm sure a lot of those leaving arrived in 2009/2010 with the belief that things were cheap. If their USD / Euro have dried up then they know it's not so cheap. So I'm sure a lot of those exiting are from about that time.

Very few of us survive the 5 year + haul. There's always a new wave replacing the last.

Well said. Being outside our own culture, the stress builds gradually, with intense peaks and lulls over the first few years. Most people don't make it past the 3 year mark. It's the same cycle where-ever you are - Japan, Korea, San Francisco, India. The stress appears differently depending mostly on the the cultural distance from your home culture. People express their stress. Some blame others, some accept it as their own emotion that is at issue for them.

Listening to the blaming and complaining doesn't indicate agreement or consensus. Disagreeing or agreeing with it also does not provide any real evidence that the cycles are changing.

Those who survive the 5-year haul by actively participating in the culture, they are really interesting people to learn from imho.