Changes for "permatourists"

[gunt86]

The standard for citizenship is 2 years of continuous residence.
...Permanent residence is NOT a requisite for citizenship.
..Case c) You have temporary or permanent residence but you have traveled recently.

Although permanent residence is not a requirement for citizenship, I am quite confident that two years of legal permanent residence is excellent proof that your 'home' has been in Argentina for two years or more. Thus providing sufficient evidence for the requirement of two years continuous residence in Argentina for citizenship. It is absurd to think that a citizenship applicant must be 100% physically present in Argentina for 2 years in order to meet the requirement of citizenship.
It is also absurd to think that the citizenship application requires documentation of the applicant's 100% physical presence in Argentina for 2 years, by way of entry/exit records from DNM. As it is possible to enter/exit Argentina with either a passport or a DNI, it is thus possible that the application's passport stamps would not reflect the actual physical presence in Argentina. Thus, an affidavit from DNM as to the physical presence of the applicant in Argentina for 100% of the two year period is the only possible proof that can exist - and this is clearly absurd to think that it is required for the citizenship application. If the citizenship process was done solely with DNM, then i would believe this to be possible. However citizenship is granted through the judiciary, so to think that DNM is communicating this closely with the judiciary is absurd.

Therefore, I am now more certain than ever that the two year residence requirement for citizenship as required by the CN is commonly interpreted as meaning that two years of legal permanent residence is sufficient evidence of meeting the requirement. And legal permanent residence does not mean physical presence. And DNM stipulates that maintenance of legal permanent residence only requires no absence of presence longer than 729 days (2 years less a day).

 

[nehalecky]

Does anyone know how this new decreto might affect someone who is trying to leave the country with an expired visa? Would the person simply pay the overstay fine, as has been the case previously?

I also have the same question as JoeKelly711, and also if anyone knows how domestic travel is effected by having an expired VISA? I have an expired travelers VISA, and am wondering if that will be a problem when I travel to Bariloche by plane next week for my job interview? I fly out of Jorge Newbery.

Later, after hopefully getting a job, I will leave to the USA at the end of the month to visit my family with my porteña novia, and will be coming back with all of my paperwork to begin the arduous process of getting a work VISA here. Hopefully my interview goes well, and I get the job.

I would really appreciate anyones thoughts, as I would need to get my visa extended at migraciones on Tuesday, if it is going to be a problem.

Thanks much you all, your explanations are always great.

 

[steveinbsas]

I also have the same question as JoeKelly711, and also if anyone knows how domestic travel is effected by having an expired VISA? I have an expired travelers VISA, and am wondering if that will be a problem when I travel to Bariloche by plane next week for my job interview? I fly out of Jorge Newbery.

Later, after hopefully getting a job, I will leave to the USA at the end of the month to visit my family with my porteña novia, and will be coming back with all of my paperwork to begin the arduous process of getting a work VISA here. Hopefully my interview goes well, and I get the job.

I would really appreciate anyones thoughts, as I would need to get my visa extended at migraciones on Tuesday, if it is going to be a problem.

Thanks much you all, your explanations are always great.

I suggest you ask this question in a new thread. Someone who has been in the same situation will be more likely to answer your question.

If your tourist visa has already expired you cannot extend it at migraciones.

I don't think you will have any problem with domestic travel on the expired visa (they will probably only check your identity, not your immigration status). I don't think you will have a problem getting a work visa if you have overstayed your tourist visa just the one time, but with the new decreto who knows?

Good luck with the interview, getting your novia into the USA, and getting the work visa if you are offered the job.

 

[gunt86]

I also have the same question as JoeKelly711, and also if anyone knows how domestic travel is effected by having an expired VISA? I have an expired travelers VISA, and am wondering if that will be a problem when I travel to Bariloche by plane next week for my job interview? I fly out of Jorge Newbery.

Domestic travel is completely irrelevant to your visa status. There is no immigration checking mechanism which occurs during domestic travel.

As for your expired 90 day tourist visa (not a traveler's visa as there is no such thing), there have been no recent changes to overstay fees. You will pay an overstay fee on your departure from Argentina of AR$300. However, what is currently uncertain is if there will be any further penalties in terms of a ban on re-entry as a result of the new decreto. To date there have been no examples of this type of ban or anything related reported on this forum. Nevertheless, the risk of visa overstay is certainly much higher than it was a few months ago. Tread lightly.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

You previously posted that with a DNI and two years of continuous residence that it was just a matter of filing the papers (without a lawyer) to receive citizenship.

Could you please describe the required paperwork and where it must be filed as well as any additional steps that must be taken.

That´s right.
Other requisites depends from judge to judge because this is interpretation of the National Constitution. If you don´t fill fit them you need a lawyer for start a case.

Where to go? Federal Chamber with jurisdiction over your address.

Ciudad de Buenos Aires: Federal Camber civil y comercial, pb of the Palacio de Tribunales, office 2083.
Requisites:
1) DNI or cédula de identidad and xerox
2) Police address certificate
3) Birth certificate (with same requisites than DGM). If they keept it, ask for a certified xerox to DGM
4) Prove of legal way of living
5) 18 years old or more
6) Address in Buenos Aires city
7) 2 years of continue and immediate residence in the country.

If you don´t full fit this requisites, then you need a lawyer and start a case

Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Although permanent residence is not a requirement for citizenship, I am quite confident that two years of legal permanent residence is excellent proof that your 'home' has been in Argentina for two years or more.

Legal residence is not a requirement. Read the Supreme Court precent I posted.

Thus providing sufficient evidence for the requirement of two years continuous residence in Argentina for citizenship. It is absurd to think that a citizenship applicant must be 100% physically present in Argentina for 2 years in order to meet the requirement of citizenship.

Absurd or not, the text of the Constitutions says "continuous residence"
And this is the criteria accepted by the 11 federal judges in Buenos Aires city. So, if you want to do the papers for free with no need of a lawyer you have to full fit this requisite. Otherwise, you need a lawyer and start a case. However I agree with you about that this is not necessary but legal interpretation is not mathematics.

It is also absurd to think that the citizenship application requires documentation of the applicant's 100% physical presence in Argentina for 2 years, by way of entry/exit records from DNM. As it is possible to enter/exit Argentina with either a passport or a DNI, it is thus possible that the application's passport stamps would not reflect the actual physical presence in Argentina. Thus, an affidavit from DNM as to the physical presence of the applicant in Argentina for 100% of the two year period is the only possible proof that can exist - and this is clearly absurd to think that it is required for the citizenship application. If the citizenship process was done solely with DNM, then i would believe this to be possible. However citizenship is granted through the judiciary, so to think that DNM is communicating this closely with the judiciary is absurd.

In fact you are wrong. According to law, you don´t have to prove this fact, it is a judge´s duty to ask for this information to DGM.

Ley 346:
" Art. 11.- Por el ministerio del interior se remitirá a todos los jueces de sección el suficiente número de ejemplares impresos de "carta de ciudadanía", de modo que sean otorgadas bajo una misma fórmula.
[FONT=&quot] Los jueces que reciban el pedido de ciudadanía, dentro del término de tres días, solicitarán de oficio todo informe o certificado que consideren conveniente requerir a la Dirección Nacional de migraciones, a la Policía Federal Argentina, a la Secretaría de Inteligencia del Estado, a la Dirección Nacional del Registro Nacional de las Personas, a la Dirección Nacional del Registro Nacional de Reincidencia y Estadística Criminal o a cualquier otra repartición pública, privada o a particulares. Los jueces se expedirán otorgando o denegando la carta de ciudadanía, con los elementos de juicio que obren en autos, en un término máximo de noventa días.
Asimismo, una vez recibida la petición, ordenarán la publicación de edictos por dos días en un periódico de circulación en la jurisdicción del domicilio real del peticionante, conteniendo claramente los datos de la solicitud, a fin de que cualquier persona quede facultada para deducir oposición fundada contra la concesión del beneficio, la que será resuelta previo dictamen del Ministerio Público interviniente. (Párrafo según Ley 24951)
No podrá negarse la ciudadanía por razones políticas, ideológicas, gremiales, religiosas o raciales.
(Modificado por ley 24533)[/FONT]"

Therefore, I am now more certain than ever that the two year residence requirement for citizenship as required by the CN is commonly interpreted as meaning that two years of legal permanent residence is sufficient evidence of meeting the requirement.

More or less.

And legal permanent residence does not mean physical presence. And DNM stipulates that maintenance of legal permanent residence only requires no absence of presence longer than 729 days (2 years less a day).

Wrong and right. Wrong because at least the 11 federal judges in Buenos Aires City interprets physical and legal residence.
Right because I agree with this interpretation. I posted a Supreme Court precedent where the judges say that legal residence is not a requisite. But there was never a case before about non continuous residence. I think that a leading case should be done.

Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I also have the same question as JoeKelly711, and also if anyone knows how domestic travel is effected by having an expired VISA? I have an expired travelers VISA, and am wondering if that will be a problem when I travel to Bariloche by plane next week for my job interview? I fly out of Jorge Newbery.

Later, after hopefully getting a job, I will leave to the USA at the end of the month to visit my family with my porteña novia, and will be coming back with all of my paperwork to begin the arduous process of getting a work VISA here. Hopefully my interview goes well, and I get the job.

I would really appreciate anyones thoughts, as I would need to get my visa extended at migraciones on Tuesday, if it is going to be a problem.

Thanks much you all, your explanations are always great.

I suggest you make an union civil with your girlfriend before you go to the US. Union civil is like marriage in rights but softer in compromise. So you can start later the citizenship or the residence using this. And you can´t be deported or rejected when you come back from US.

Or you can marry, but this is better to do in proper time.

Regards

 

[gunt86]

You have been living 2 years here going to Colonia. Your residence (synonymous of home) is in Argentina. And the travels to Colonia doesn´t mean you change your will to live in Argentina. Judges will reject you papers, so you have to appeal to Supreme Court. Why Supreme Court? Because there is a debate about what residence means. Residence is mentioned at the Argentinian Constitution and Supreme Court is the interpreter of the Constitution.

Actually I believe that the argument that an illegal immigrant is eligible for citizenship based on the fact that they have had more than 2 years of physical presence in the country is a very poor argument and will lose. Here is why: every time the person re-enters Argentina on a 90 tourist visa, the immigration officer asks what their intention is in Argentina. The person always says "tourism", because that is the only way they can get the 90 day tourist visa. It is this statement "Tourism" that is the problem - if someone's intention is tourism, then they clearly cannot be a resident in that same country as well. The person has thus stated to an immigration officer that they do not live (they do not reside) in Argentina. So how can they later state before a judge that they are a resident of Argentina? Obviously one of the statements is a lie. They have misrepresented themselves. That is why this argument will fail.

 

[gunt86]

Legal residence is not a requirement. Read the Supreme Court precent I posted.

Absurd or not, the text of the Constitutions says "continuous residence"
And this is the criteria accepted by the 11 federal judges in Buenos Aires city. So, if you want to do the papers for free with no need of a lawyer you have to full fit this requisite. Otherwise, you need a lawyer and start a case. However I agree with you about that this is not necessary but legal interpretation is not mathematics.

In fact you are wrong. According to law, you don´t have to prove this fact, it is a judge´s duty to ask for this information to DGM.

Sorry, but there is a miscommunication. You didn't understand what I wrote.
Here is my point:
1) Citizenship requires two years of continuous residence according to CN.
2) Residence is undefined by CN. It is unclear if it means physical presence or legal right of habitation.
3) Residence cannot mean 730 days of continuous physical presence as it is impossible to provide irrefutable evidence of this. Furthermore, it would be absurd to request that an applicant never leave the country for 730 days, not even for a vacation or funeral of a loved one!
4) Residence must mean that the applicant's 'primary home' is in Argentina.
5) A permanent resident visa, while not required, is sufficient evidence that the applicant's 'primary home' is in Argentina.
6) To maintain a permanent resident visa, DNM requires no absence of presence to be more than 729 days.
7) An applicant can make a successful application for citizenship by having 2 years of permanent resident status, regardless of physical presence in Argentina.


The naturalization process of most countries is very similar to Argentina; the requirement of XX years of residence. For example, the US requires 5 years of legal permanent residence AND the majority of days in that 5 years must be physically present in the US. Argentina has neglected to have a physical presence test in its citizenship requirements.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Sorry, but there is a miscommunication. You didn't understand what I wrote.

There isn´t any miscommunication. No offense but there is a huge confusion. This is not a debate. I explained you what is the legal situation, the judges interpretation of law and my expertize about possible scenarios and strategies. SteveinBsAs started a new threat about citizenship for debating, he asked specifically no lawyers welcome. So, that threat is the proper place for debating.

1) Citizenship requires two years of continuous residence according to CN.

Right.

2) Residence is undefined by CN. It is unclear if it means physical presence or legal right of habitation.

Residence has been defined by Supreme Court in the case I posted. They said it is a matter of fact instead of a legal terminology. This means that only matter if you actually were living here or not and your will about staying here.

The problematic word is continuous. However, there is are some techniques about Constitutional interpretation that might be used to explain that continuous doesn´t mean 730 days.

3) Residence cannot mean 730 days of continuous physical presence as it is impossible to provide irrefutable evidence of this. Furthermore, it would be absurd to request that an applicant never leave the country for 730 days, not even for a vacation or funeral of a loved one!

Well, you are misunderstanding what do you think or wish with what is the peaceful interpretation of the 11 federal judges of Buenos Aires city. The fact, not a simple speculation, is that they ask for 730 days of continuous residence if you want to full fit the requirements for a free of charge and fast citizenship procedure.

However, I disagree with this interpretation. The proper place to argue about a new interpretation of the Constitution is the Supreme Court.

The point is the following: You full fit the requisite the judges ask, you get your citizenship for free and in less than a week. You have a different interpretation, you have to go to Supreme Court, simple like that.

4) Residence must mean that the applicant's 'primary home' is in Argentina.

Must is an improper word to use when we talk about law interpretation. Residence means whatever they say it means.
However, I thing that residence is the place where the home is. If there is a new leading case, in future residence might means "primary home".

5) A permanent resident visa, while not required, is sufficient evidence that the applicant's 'primary home' is in Argentina.

Well, you are missing the point, they decide what is enough and what is not. They, according to law 346, have the duty to request your criminal record and whatever they think is necessary, for example, they ask DGM how many days have you been in Argentina. This is a fact, not speculation.

6) To maintain a permanent resident visa, DNM requires no absence of presence to be more than 729 days.

My mathematics school teacher should say, what relationship has the price of oil with the danger of extinction of Siberian Tiger? None. Here is the same. There is no relationship between the requisites of a residence (administrative law) and citizenship (constitutional law). This is a mistake. But, please, understand that I am explaining you instead of debating. So, this is much better asking instead of asserting.

7) An applicant can make a successful application for citizenship by having 2 years of permanent resident status, regardless of physical presence in Argentina.

No chance with the juez de primera instancia. However, I think that the case might be won at the Supreme Court.

The naturalization process of most countries is very similar to Argentina; the requirement of XX years of residence. For example, the US requires 5 years of legal permanent residence AND the majority of days in that 5 years must be physically present in the US. Argentina has neglected to have a physical presence test in its citizenship requirements.

Wrong. The Argentinian Constitution is unique in this subject. And you are talking about administrative law again, we have a saying about that. Were captain command, sailor doesn´t. The captain in a country is the Constitution, the sailor the administrative law. In international law, internal law of a country is a matter of fact, this is not a matter of law. This means, whatever other country law is, means nothing to another country. Here gay marriage is legal. In other countries is illegal or they send you to jail for being gay.
Regards