Ciccone Case: Lijo Judge Processed Vice-President Boudou

[internationalguy]

I never said argentine justice should be a model or something, its just that I m tired of reading here lots of people complaining comparing to their beloved US where things are so great. I just wanted to point that things could work here, that in a lot of ways Argentina is a more simple society, less nationalistic (thats a positive thing since we dont have wars unstoppably in the last 50 years or do not spend like Chile more in planes than in education)... yeah, corruption is rampant here, but it is also in the US, maybe not at a micro level, but that is changing for worse in the US, is a total decadent society, everyone knows that...
So maybe with this example they wont trash anymore Argentina, maybe they can realise that some things might work here, that justice exists. If you go to Ministerio del Trabajo you should know that 99% of the cases the justice go with the worker instead of with the company.... yes, justice might be slow, but if the Ks were that powerfull, and the justice so inexistant and corrupted, and if the politicians had the power to manipulate everything, this case should not existed. Just a reminder that not everything is wrong here.

My good friend, are you really saying that Argentina is not nationalistic? You have met Argentine people haven't you?

 

[Matiasba]

Argentine people are less nationalistic than chileans and americans, for instance.
There is a part of the society, generally linked with the militars, right wing nuts, chauvinists, etc, that are for "la patria" but their base is pretty hollow, is just "viva la patria", putting the flag in their balcony and nothing more; they think "la patria" as a separate thing of "the people", they dont want immigration, are against same sex marriage, in general very religious, they want an anachronistic society, totally empty of real world ideas, and their premises do not resist any analysis.... thats the nationaistics here.... fortunately a minority.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

My good friend, are you really saying that Argentina is not nationalistic? You have met Argentine people haven't you?

I've never heard of any non-Argentine named "Argentino."

 

[Gringoboy]

Matiias, I always thought you were Argentine

 

[ajoknoblauch]

No, Argentines are not nationalistic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xqwNsmzCbM

 

[internationalguy]

If I'm not mistaken Matias is Uruguayan.

 

[Matiasba]

Im argentine, born and raised, but my mother and all my mothers family is Uruguayan, where I go like 4 or 5 times a year....

About the Plaza and Malvinas, it was a long time ago, and arg society needed that... If I had to choose an episode to close the Argentine of the XXth century, that would be Malvinas. The militars and their nationalistic ideas had a lot of weight along XXth century... lots of coups, of militars governments, of militarized societies, tanks on the streets, etc, the forces had a lot of political weight in the national scene.... Malvinas is clearly an episode of that century, of last century...
In the new "era", the democratic era (started in 1983) nationalism, probably because the atrocities of the militars, has been losing power very fast... today remains a tiny percentage, but lots of people, the majority, immediatly relate nationalism to dictatorship. I dont know with the new generations (that grew up far away from those years) though.

 

[internationalguy]

I'm not saying Argentines advocate racism, bigotry, moral superiority or... let me quote you. "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]they think "la patria" as a separate thing of "the people", they dont want immigration, are against same sex marriage, in general very religious, they want an anachronistic society, totally empty of real world ideas, and their premises do not resist any analysis".[/background]

That however is not an accurate depiction of nationalism. Just look at the way most Argentines see themselves as superior. The way the neighbors are berated. The way Argentina seems to be the center of the universe. The way they say things like "Colombian and Ecuadorian is the same thing" but God forbid someone should say that about Argentina and someone else. Argentina is very nationalistic. It's a huge fault. Notwithstanding the fact that many if not the vast majority of Americans are also a little bit like that. I was saying that you flopped by saying Argentines weren't that's all.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Im argentine, born and raised, but my mother and all my mothers family is Uruguayan, where I go like 4 or 5 times a year....

About the Plaza and Malvinas, it was a long time ago, and arg society needed that... If I had to choose an episode to close the Argentine of the XXth century, that would be Malvinas. The militars and their nationalistic ideas had a lot of weight along XXth century... lots of coups, of militars governments, of militarized societies, tanks on the streets, etc, the forces had a lot of political weight in the national scene.... Malvinas is clearly an episode of that century, of last century...
In the new "era", the democratic era (started in 1983) nationalism, probably because the atrocities of the militars, has been losing power very fast... today remains a tiny percentage, but lots of people, the majority, immediatly relate nationalism to dictatorship. I dont know with the new generations (that grew up far away from those years) though.

On the Falklands issue, the current government is guilty of its own cheap nationalism. Fortunately, it lacks the will or the ability to inflict itself on the other party, and must content itself with mouthing off and petty economic harassment.

 

[Matiasba]

I'm not saying Argentines advocate racism, bigotry, moral superiority or... let me quote you. "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]they think "la patria" as a separate thing of "the people", they dont want immigration, are against same sex marriage, in general very religious, they want an anachronistic society, totally empty of real world ideas, and their premises do not resist any analysis".[/background]

That however is not an accurate depiction of nationalism. Just look at the way most Argentines see themselves as superior. The way the neighbors are berated. The way Argentina seems to be the center of the universe. The way they say things like "Colombian and Ecuadorian is the same thing" but God forbid someone should say that about Argentina and someone else. Argentina is very nationalistic. It's a huge fault. Notwithstanding the fact that many if not the vast majority of Americans are also a little bit like that. I was saying that you flopped by saying Argentines weren't that's all.

Ok, we re talking of two different nationalisms. I was talking of political nationalism, of those ideas, of the people, the group that today represents those ideas.

The other nationalism, is like a lot lighter, the day-to-day nationalism, the one you find in the streets. Which I think every society has. I mean, like the british not considering them europeans, or the americans the greatest country on earth, or the italians the funnier, lots of Latin American countries consider they have the best ladies!!
Every country has something distinctive, something unique, culturally, economically, historically, etc, every country has it. So if you look at it, is something you will find everywhere.

Now, the argentine middle class always had that feeling of avant garde of Latin America, like "Argentina different of Latin America" due its european origins. I dont consider that nationalism, I think its some strategy of distinction, of establishing some distance from every latin country, of ambition of europeanness... which has a base of reality, of course.... I dont consider that nationalism per se. As I said is like the nordics defending their models of life, the british pretending not being european, the russians talking of the little country they have on the map, etc, thats not nationalistic, is distinction, is like more related to national identity, it happens very much when a country is not secure or does not have too much elements to get distinction from others.