Conservative.definition.

[thorsten]

thorsten: Peronism,as Herminio Iglesias said, is a feeling.It is a huge umbrella gouping of feeling or whatever you want to make of it .Especially,if you are a party loyakist or looking for a "davida" -a gov't hand out

So it's "a feeling" and "whatever you want to make of it", but clearly Menem wasn't really a peronist? I fail to see the logic in your definition, sorry.

 

[Matiasba]

El Queso, how could a free market friendly policy maker as Macri can be considered radical?

Free market policies, here and everywhere are made by big important economic actors, by corporations, by the people who has money and do not want any tax or regulation to their investments and the way they multiply their capitals.

In the world, the people who are interesed in these policies are the bussiness people, wealthy people, peoplelinked to the bussiness world. Look, the capital tends to concentrate itself, proove with the fortunes we have today, and market regulations are always for the society, for the poor people, for the common citizen, to stop the rich get more and more, to tax them and redistribute that, with social policies, with programmes, with planes, with health, education, etc.

 

[Matiasba]

Wether you like it or not, peronism has an identity, an anthem, and its slogans. It does have an identity, it does have features, you can recognise a peronist government.
What happened in the 90s, was that a charismatic leader as Menem used all the cosmetic and images of peronism, even his speeches like "Salariazo y Revolucion Productiva" to get to the presidency and then did exactly the opposite of what peronismo claims to be its slogans, ideas, policies or whatever you like to call it.

 

[Noesdeayer]

thorsten:
I was trying to be facetious However,Peronism is an umbrella grouping of many diverse factions.
Re.Menem not really being a Peronist, Please google:
El Peronismo Durante el Gobierno de Menem by Steven Levitsky,Assistant Professor of History,Harvard University,September 2008
The first 2 paragraphs.Maybe you can find it in Engish as well Menem was tying to" dupe" Peronism into somethng more "market friendy" like Felipe Gonzalez did in Spain but it didn't work out..

 

[thorsten]

You don't get my point... Perform another simple google search and you find many articles claiming he was a Peronist. And that's the problem: there is no clear definition of what Peronism means, so everybody has a different understanding of it. The only exception is Mathias, who obviously knows exactly what it is (but also can't provide a concise and clear definition and thus superficial terms that apply to any football club)...

 

[Matiasba]

You don't get my point... Perform another simple google search and you find many articles claiming he was a Peronist. And that's the problem: there is no clear definition of what Peronism means, so everybody has a different understanding of it. The only exception is Mathias, who obviously knows exactly what it is (but also can't provide a concise and clear definition and thus superficial terms that apply to any football club)...

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Peronism is very complex, but I will take [/background]Guillermo O' Donnell[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)] definition, who said Peronismo is sort of a defensive alliance between the working class and the small national business class, both pro-industry, against the agrarian & the big multinational capital acting together. (like this definition?) [/background]

for peronists and anti peronists, theres one government, the first one of Peron, which was the most peronist government ever. So every time someone talks of peronism, up to the seventies, that government comes to mind. It is the paradigm of peronism. It is by far the most simbolic peronism. It is what peronism wanted during the 60s and 70s when peronism was prohibited.

Please google the lyrics of the peronism anthem and translate
please google its slogans: independencia economica, justicia social y soberania politica
please google what happened to unions during peron and even after him when he was in Spain

 

[Noesdeayer]

thorsten: That is the point exactly.There IS NO Clear Definition of what Peronism is except that it is a chameleon-like, opportunistic political grouping.Google all you want but that is what Menem was trying to do.I didn't have to read about it .I lived it right here and experienced it first hand. But that doesn't make any difference now.Macri has finally put the bell on the Peronist cat.

 

[ElQueso]

Given that Peronism goes back to its founder, to 1946, that most of the country (as evidenced by the recent elections) is Peronist (as long as you define Kirchnerismo as a form of Peronism, which your definition certainly upholds, Matias, and Massa as well being a Peronist) and there have been more than two instances of Peronism in the last 70 years (that is, more than just Peron in his two separate turns at leading the country), it still seems to me that Peronism, in the political context of Argentina, could be considered conservatism, given the definition of conservatism.

BTW - as is the problem with most labels, one size doesn't fit all. Just because Peronists may be conservative (in my mind at least), it doesn't mean that another form of thought, such as that of the landholders who ran the country from a previous time, can't be conservative also.

 

[ElQueso]

thorsten: That is the point exactly.There IS NO Clear Definition of what Peronism is except that it is a chameleon-like, opportunistic political grouping.Google all you want but that is what Menem was trying to do.I didn't have to read about it .I lived it right here and experienced it first hand. But that doesn't make any difference now.Macri has finally put the bell on the Peronist cat.

Macri put the bell on the Kirchnerist-flavor-of-Peronism's cat, I think. Remember that between Scioli and Massa, we're still talking some 58.2% or so of the vote going to peronism...

 

[Matt84]

BTW - as is the problem with most labels, one size doesn't fit all. Just because Peronists may be conservative (in my mind at least), it doesn't mean that another form of thought, such as that of the landholders who ran the country from a previous time, can't be conservative also.

Well, Conservative is a label that certainly doesn't fit a Reactionary movement, even when that reaction was as much directed to the landowners and the church as to the communists.
Church-burnings and confiscation of property: Peron 1950s
Night of the long knives and confiscation of human life: Peron 1970s