Dating in Buenos Aires.

[Ashley]

As far as cleaning is concerned, there is a definite male/female dynamic here which I think foreign women (in particular) have a hard time with. There is most certainly an "unwillingness/refusal to engage in domestic chores" on the part of Argentine men - but let's be honest, people, I don't think that's exclusive to Argentine men! I think that the only difference in this sense between Argentine and foreign men is that here there is a pay-off (if you're happy to accept it). I know so many Argentine women who refuse to pay for anything (date-wise), and they quite happily let their husbands/boyfriends pay for clothes, personal expenses, bills...no problem. At home, a lot of household chores get done by a maid and the rest by the woman...generally...But if you're getting these financial benefits, what's the problem with washing a few dishes?
Maybe I'm just particularly unfortunate, but I have never been in a relationship with a man (Argentine or otherwise) who has pulled his weight in the house. Perhaps they didn't outright hand me a broom but whenever I've settled into a relationship with someone, I've always ended up doing most of the chores (and, don't get me wrong, this has always led to major arguments). I think the real problem here lies in the fact that we as foreign women, find the financial/cleaning trade-off in Argentina unacceptable...and for the men it is culturally ingrained.
Even so, when I look at my girlfriends in the UK, they work full-time, some of them bring up children, they do almost all of the cooking and the cleaning. And there is no way that their partners could/would financially support them so they end up doing it all - I think that they're a lot worse off than women here because they just don't have that option.
In my case (I'm married to an Arg), I still can't bring myself to contribute anything less than 50% to our general expenses (I work full-time). I generally do 75% of the cooking and, after months of (hysterical) arguments, finally made my husband hire a cleaner to mop up his 50% of the filth! Unfortunately, she started pilfering bottles of imported spirits and so we had to let her go...and I am back doing 90% of the cleaning until we can find an alternative. If I were more like my argentine girlfriends, I'm sure some new shoes would take the edge off all that mopping...

 

[citygirl]

Ashley - I don't disagree with you. Both on the difficulty in accepting it and the trade-off. And honestly, if I weren't working - I would have no problems with that as it seems fair if one is earning the money outside of the home, that the other is responsible for the work inside the home. But that's not the case for me.

PS - if you need a good cleaning woman, let me know. I have had great luck with the woman that is cleaning my house. She is super trust-worthy and cleans really well.

 

[billsfan]

I won't speak for the other argie men, each one of us is a different story.
However, based on what I've read, I see 2 different relationship stages.

1. Dating
2. Living together, sharing duties, etc.

The latter is much more difficult to solve here. It all depends on the initial stages and what you are ready to give up or deal with.
If you are not willing to clean up or be the maid, then you have to set the limits from the start. Why do you take all that crap if you don't want to?? I assume there is a reward in all this. Is the sex good?

You take as much crap as you want to.
And this is not an argentine related truth, it's a world's.

 

[ssr]

I won't speak for the other argie men, each one of us is a different story.
However, based on what I've read, I see 2 different relationship stages.

1. Dating
2. Living together, sharing duties, etc.

The latter is much more difficult to solve here. It all depends on the initial stages and what you are ready to give up or deal with.
If you are not willing to clean up or be the maid, then you have to set the limits from the start. Why do you take all that crap if you don't want to?? I assume there is a reward in all this. Is the sex good?

You take as much crap as you want to.
And this is not an argentine related truth, it's a world's.

Agreed. And, honestly, it's difficult for me to respect anyone, male or female, who allows themselves to be treated like a servant by their significant other. To each their own, of course, but don't go blaming a country or a culture or whatever for your choices.

 

[fifs2]

I have a hard time dating here for several reasons.

1) Independence. The men I've met have loved it in theory but not so much in actuality. I have a pretty high-stress job and my hours are crazy. I also have friends and yes, I make my own plans. So when I'm not available for last-minute dates, they get all cranky.
a) I have zero interest in cooking and cleaning for a man - or at least it being expected that the woman will do this. This seems to be pretty culturally ingrained though. Some of the men I dated wanted nothing more than to hang out at my apt, have me cook dinner for them (and do the dishes natch) and considered it a great evening. Me, not so much.
b) Money issues. I earn a decent salary and for here, it's a high salary. I don't need a man to pay my bills. I find that talking about money gets very uncomfortable very quickly. And I'm not going to apologize for my job but a lot of men get really defensive that they earn less than me. (I'm not out flaunting money around just to clarify and it's not so important to me what he earns, providing he works hard but it seems like it is a direct blow to their esteem if I earn more.)

2) Lack of meaning in the words. I really struggle with this. For example, in the US - if a man said I love you, introduced you to his family, talked about having kids with you - all these would be pretty clear signals that he was serious about you. Here - not so much. they're just words. (Del dicho al hecho, hay mucho trecho!)

3) Drama. Dear god the drama. Again, it's a cultural thing but i just don't do screaming fights, scenes, etc. And if I do, it's because I'm REALLY angry. And I'm just not going to get over that. But here, it's as though it's accepted, even required. If you don't have fight, you don't love one another. (I've been told I was cold because I don't want to have huge fights). And when you do have a big fight, you make up and poof - it's like it never happened. But for me - if you're screaming at me or telling me terrible things, I'm going to remember them.

4) Lack of maturity. Men in their 30s here are like men in their 20s where i come from. If they're single, they're still going out to bars and boliches and a lot of them are dating women in their early 20s. I have a conocido in his 30s who still lives at home and is in no rush to move out. I can't even begin to fathom that.

5) Baggage. I swear, we all have it but the men here take it to a new level. There is almost always a kid with a baby mama, a crazy ex, therapists, etc, etc. It just seems like I spent more time listening to them talk about their problems than doing something fun.

I dated a guy here - we weren't bf/gf but hung out a lot together. We were talking about having a relationship and he said to me (and it really encapsulated my problems dating here) - "Look, I like you, I really enjoy spending time with you. But if you're my girlfriend, I'm going to call you 5x a day or you're going to be calling me asking me where I am and we'll fight all the time. I just can't handle the pressure of a relationship." And that truly is what he thought a relationship would be - fights and drama and jealousy. And that is the farthest thing from what a relationship is for me. However, after all that, he didn't want me to date anyone else - just expected me to stay and wait for him...

Is that to say all men are like that or think that? No, of course not. But I do find it really, really hard to date here. I've had 4 relationships with Argentines. The first was a typical histerico - we fought all the time (broke up in 3 different countries). Lots of drama, fighting, making up, scenes, etc. It was exhausting. The 2nd was in his 30s, still lived at home and was in no rush to grow up - nice guy but I felt like his mother. The 3rd (the youngest actually) was great although it didn't work out for other reasons. He wound up moving overseas to study. And the 4th was the guy I mentioned above who wanted to have all the benefits of a relationship but without really committing.

Sigh.. it's one of the reason I think about leaving Argentina - sometimes I feel as though the cultural differences are just too great to overcome when it comes to relationships.

This was so well expressed I wanted to read more...if you ever write a book on the subject count on me to buy the first copy.

 

[dennisr]

Interesting and humorous read ladies. Do not have the kahones to say anything other than:
"the fool in each of us is the image we have of ourselves."
Good luck ladies.

 

[Ashley]

I won't speak for the other argie men, each one of us is a different story.
However, based on what I've read, I see 2 different relationship stages.

1. Dating
2. Living together, sharing duties, etc.

The latter is much more difficult to solve here. It all depends on the initial stages and what you are ready to give up or deal with.
If you are not willing to clean up or be the maid, then you have to set the limits from the start. Why do you take all that crap if you don't want to?? I assume there is a reward in all this. Is the sex good?

You take as much crap as you want to.
And this is not an argentine related truth, it's a world's.

Well...I don't think it's as dramatic as "taking all that crap" (unless of course, you're putting up with the cheating, lying, etc, etc...which I've personally never known anyone to do). I honestly believe that very few relationships are 50/50 as far as the sharing of duties are concerned and I just don't believe that people really go to the lengths of drawing up a cleaning rota before getting into a relationship with someone!
I personally do more than my fair share of household chores because a) I can't be bothered to argue over it, b) my standards of house hygiene are much higher than my husbands, c) I'm "between cleaners" (yes, please pm me those dats Citygirl!), d) there are certain aspects of the house that I don't take care of and my husband does so I guess it works out as more or less even in our case.
I also think this is pretty much the same with a lot of women in the UK that I know. It's not that the men are lazy or the women are weak or that they're in bad relationships, I think that women there just have way too much on their plates. They have to work because one average UK salary won't cover family costs (and because being successful professionally is now as expected of women as it is with men), they can't afford help like women can here and generally (sorry guys) their partners have much lower standards as far as carrying out household chores are concerned. Perhaps its different in the states or other parts of the world, but this is certainly the relationship dynamics that I have observed here and in the UK.

 

[AlexfromLA]

WOW,

You're f**king awesome.

Perhaps they didn't outright hand me a broom but whenever I've settled into a relationship with someone, I've always ended up doing most of the chores. In my case (I'm married to an Arg), I still can't bring myself to contribute anything less than 50% to our general expenses (I work full-time). I generally do 75% of the cooking and I am back doing 90% of the cleaning until we can find an alternative.

 

[billsfan]

Well...I don't think it's as dramatic as "taking all that crap" (unless of course, you're putting up with the cheating, lying, etc, etc...which I've personally never known anyone to do). I honestly believe that very few relationships are 50/50 as far as the sharing of duties are concerned and I just don't believe that people really go to the lengths of drawing up a cleaning rota before getting into a relationship with someone!
I personally do more than my fair share of household chores because a) I can't be bothered to argue over it, b) my standards of house hygiene are much higher than my husbands, c) I'm "between cleaners" (yes, please pm me those dats Citygirl!), d) there are certain aspects of the house that I don't take care of and my husband does so I guess it works out as more or less even in our case.
I also think this is pretty much the same with a lot of women in the UK that I know. It's not that the men are lazy or the women are weak or that they're in bad relationships, I think that women there just have way too much on their plates. They have to work because one average UK salary won't cover family costs (and because being successful professionally is now as expected of women as it is with men), they can't afford help like women can here and generally (sorry guys) their partners have much lower standards as far as carrying out household chores are concerned. Perhaps its different in the states or other parts of the world, but this is certainly the relationship dynamics that I have observed here and in the UK.

Well, of course i didn't mean YOU in particular were taking too much crap. I meant it as a general rule. Each one decides what's happiness, what's the perfect partner and what's the perfect life.
IF someone is all the time complaining about his/her partner, then I have to assume he/she is not happy (to their standards) or is in a wacky relationship, or whatever.

 

[ssr]

Alright, enough about household chores. If someone wants to mop in exchange for shoes, they're free to do so. Back to dating...

Maybe this advice that an Argy dude gave me for picking up Argy girls will help the poor frazzled foreign ladies of BAExpats.org better understand Argentine men:

So, this Argentine guy I know works at a bar frequented by foreigners and watches foreign dudes try to pick up local girls every night, often without much success. According to him, what these foreign dudes don't get is that all you need in Argentina to meet girls (and to start making out with them pretty quickly afterwards) is one nice shirt, a decent smile and a bit of charm (hence "chamuyero," I guess).

These things that these foreign guys actually have--money, a great education, a great job, a wardrobe full of nice clothes, etc.--most people in Argentina don't have. When you go to a bar and dudes look okay, oftentimes they are wearing their one nice shirt and have just enough money for maybe a drink or two. Everything else is pretty much BS and so BS is what's expected. Some American guy rattling off his many accomplishments is something so foreign to the average girl in Argentina that eventually she loses interest and goes looking for a simple, full-of-shit Argy dude to just make out with for a while.

As far as he could tell (and he's mostly right, of course), women from places like the US tend to actually want men to be educated and/or successful. Not so in Argentina. Look past a dude's one nice shirt and you're likely to find a semi-educated, semi-employed schlub who still lives at home with his parents and never does his own dishes. Which is why it's often best to not look past the shirt, the smile and the charm.

I can certainly understand why people leave relatively frigid northern countries to try to find a bit of excitement down south. When I lived in Spain a few years ago, I heard lots of complaints from Northern European girls about how things had become so equal and politically correct in their home countries that they just never got hit on anymore (even though they were mostly absolutely stunning). They may not have been looking for a Spanish husband, but they certainly seemed to appreciate the attention lavished on them by the less-restrained Spanish men (who, in the south of Spain, were also largely semi-educated, semi-employed schlubs who still lived at home with their parents).

But, if you decide you want to take it to the next level with someone you met during your exciting Latin adventure, it's probably best to give some thought to how well your standards and expectations actually match up. A dude with one nice shirt who mostly just spouts BS is probably not a wise choice for a serious relationship. And, in general, in a place like Argentina, if you get the sense that someone is full of shit, they probably are. Trust your instincts and bolt (you know, before or after you knock boots in his race car bed at his parent's house ).