Day of Remembrance for Truth and Justice

[FrankPintor]

This is a total misrepresentation of the facts as I understand them.

In the 1980's the former Military Government was judged, the high echelons imprisoned for their crimes/excesses, and in the 1990's Carlos Menem issued a pardon so the country could move forward.
From 2003 on the Kirchner's (somehow) revoked the pardons and hundreds of previously pardoned members of the military are back in prison; for the last twenty years or so the only side of the story being told is that of the Marxist guerrillas who are not in prison today and many of whom were participants in the K governments.

Stop and ask yourself who were these Marxist guerrillas, what was their objective and what were they doing in the late 1960's and in the 1970's up to the March 24, 1976 golpe de estado. Keep in mind that from 1973 until the 1976 coup that Argentina had a democratically elected Peronist government. The Montoneros and ERP were Cuban inspired and funded who aimed through violence, murder, and terrorist attacks to overthrow the constitutional Argentina state and install a Cuban style Marxist dictatorship, including the seizure of all private property and privately owned businesses.

Perhaps you've got the wrong end of the stick?

I (and I think most of the commenters in this thread) are talking about victims. Are there many unidentified / missing / disappeared victims of the guerrillas you mention?

Whereas we can't be sure exactly how many the military dictatorship offed, whether 5, 10, 22, 30 thousand, though some evidence points to a figure greater than 22,000 victims, precisely because they were disappeared and the evidence destroyed.

 

[Stantucker]

I think it is fine to question these figures in a serious manner.

No, you can't question these figures in a serious manner because wokeism kicks in and you become a total negacionista or turd polisher piece of shit for having intellectually honest questions, for questioning the party line (all sounds rather Soviet, doesn't it).

And people wonder why it's part of the reason that folks voted for Trump. And no, I did not vote for Trump.

 

[Quilombo]

Keep in mind that from 1973 until the 1976 coup that Argentina had a democratically elected Peronist government.

So democratically elected that Juan and Isabel (who is still alive and should be rotting in a jail cell) supported, and then Isabel legalized via DNU AAA death squads that literally went out and murdered anyone to the left of themselves, whether students, union activists, lawyers, what most Americans would consider liberals (think anti-communists with politics like Jimmy Carter), UCR members, other Peronists bothered by Peron's increasing right wing tendencies, human rights activists, etc.

Also, the Montoneros and the ERP didn't exist in a vacuum/didn't just randomly wake up one day and go "Hey, let's start a Foco/Maoist style insurgency to overthrow the civil rights respecting democracy that is Argentina" they saw a reverse Domino Theory where LBJ, Nixon and Kissinger and friends were installing/supporting fascist regimes from Jakarta to Juarez and knew what was coming, and were able to recruit members based on just how insanely blood thirsty the Perons had increasingly become the years before the Junta took over.

If any Argentine President starts sending out death squads again I really hope folks on this forum won't clutch their pearls and say "But he/she was democratically elected!". Remember, Castro was a good America loving liberal until reality radicalized him.

 

[Quilombo]

No, you can't question these figures in a serious manner because wokeism kicks in and you become a total negacionista or turd polisher piece of shit for having intellectually honest questions, for questioning the party line (all sounds rather Soviet, doesn't it).

And people wonder why it's part of the reason that folks voted for Trump. And no, I did not vote for Trump.

Got it, being against Holocaust Revisionism/Genocide Denialism is "wokeism" now lol

Elon Musk's ketamine ravaged brain has really given the "Just asking questions" crowd the courage to crawl out of the gutters.
The never in "Never Again" only lasted 80 years it seems...

 

[Stantucker]

So democratically elected that Juan and Isabel (who is still alive and should be rotting in a jail cell) supported, and then Isabel legalized via DNU AAA death squads that literally went out and murdered anyone to the left of themselves, whether students, union activists, lawyers, what most Americans would consider liberals (think anti-communists with politics like Jimmy Carter), UCR members, other Peronists bothered by Peron's increasing right wing tendencies, human rights activists, etc.

Also, the Montoneros and the ERP didn't exist in a vacuum/didn't just randomly wake up one day and go "Hey, let's start a Foco/Maoist style insurgency to overthrow the civil rights respecting democracy that is Argentina" they saw a reverse Domino Theory where LBJ, Nixon and Kissinger and friends were installing/supporting fascist regimes from Jakarta to Juarez and knew what was coming, and were able to recruit members based on just how insanely blood thirsty the Perons had increasingly become the years before the Junta took over.

If any Argentine President starts sending out death squads again I really hope folks on this forum won't clutch their pearls and say "But he/she was democratically elected!". Remember, Castro was a good America loving liberal until reality radicalized him.

Wow, it's a shame they weren't successful and Argentina didn't end up with a Castro style dictatorial regime, since the only choices at the time were a leftist or rightist fascist regimes.

 

[Stantucker]

Got it, being against Holocaust Revisionism/Genocide Denialism is "wokeism" now lol

Elon Musk's ketamine ravaged brain has really given the "Just asking questions" crowd the courage to crawl out of the gutters.
The never in "Never Again" only lasted 80 years it seems...

We are not talking about Holocaust deniers here. Stop conflating the two to try to strengthen your argument.

Would all those who are Holocaust deniers on the forum please step forward and identity yourselves?

 

[Sojourner]

Perhaps you've got the wrong end of the stick?

I (and I think most of the commenters in this thread) are talking about victims. Are there many unidentified / missing / disappeared victims of the guerrillas you mention?

This question is very much on point and returns us to the video that was once the issue of this thread. The answer from me is I don’t know but I am sure that firm ideologies of left/right do not assist understanding whereas a full knowledge of facts invariably does. For this reason, as others have noted, it should be OK to ask questions without fear or blame. The more questions and the more subsets of answers the greater the likelihood of an approach to reality. The video was a subset; we are not there yet.

 

[cortazar]

No, you can't question these figures in a serious manner because wokeism kicks in and you become a total negacionista or turd polisher piece of shit for having intellectually honest questions, for questioning the party line (all sounds rather Soviet, doesn't it).

And people wonder why it's part of the reason that folks voted for Trump. And no, I did not vote for Trump.

This inflammatory style of argument exhibits the same black-and-white thinking that it complains of.

It is possible to simultaneously hold opinions that 30k is overstated and overly politicized, that Montoneros killed innocent people and their victims have been historically ignored, that state-organized violence constitutes an especially malignant form of social and intellectual repression, and that the full number of the disappearances committed by the state is impossible to verify.

Now "both sides were wrong" is literally the party line (and video). That doesn't mean the video shouldn't exist, as @Sojourner says it contributes to overall conversation. It is also propaganda, serving a government whose interest is to declare that leftists are the root of all evil and that claims of right-wing oppression are overstated.

I welcome valid critique of historical narrative. But I am also wary of politicial pretexts to incrementally erode the individual's ability to think freely and receive due process.

 

[ArgentinaVet]

So democratically elected that Juan and Isabel (who is still alive and should be rotting in a jail cell) supported, and then Isabel legalized via DNU AAA death squads that literally went out and murdered anyone to the left of themselves, whether students, union activists, lawyers, what most Americans would consider liberals (think anti-communists with politics like Jimmy Carter), UCR members, other Peronists bothered by Peron's increasing right wing tendencies, human rights activists, etc.

Also, the Montoneros and the ERP didn't exist in a vacuum/didn't just randomly wake up one day and go "Hey, let's start a Foco/Maoist style insurgency to overthrow the civil rights respecting democracy that is Argentina" they saw a reverse Domino Theory where LBJ, Nixon and Kissinger and friends were installing/supporting fascist regimes from Jakarta to Juarez and knew what was coming, and were able to recruit members based on just how insanely blood thirsty the Perons had increasingly become the years before the Junta took over.

If any Argentine President starts sending out death squads again I really hope folks on this forum won't clutch their pearls and say "But he/she was democratically elected!". Remember, Castro was a good America loving liberal until reality radicalized him.

Peron won the September 1973 election with over 61% of the vote in the first election that Peronism wasn't banned since the early 1950's; the military allowed Peron to run because the Montoneros and ERP were so out of control that they believed he was the only political figure powerful enough to prevent the country from imploding under the strain of the Marxist insurgency. Peron was not a communist and the Montoneros and ERP were not socialist parties trying to get into government via the democratic process; Montoneros and ERP were Marxist terrorist organizations whose objective was to turn Argentina into Cuba 2.0. Anti terrorism/ anti insurgency activity is always an ugly mess no matter what shape it takes anywhere in the world.

 

[paulo]

Got it, being against Holocaust Revisionism/Genocide Denialism is "wokeism" now lol

Elon Musk's ketamine ravaged brain has really given the "Just asking questions" crowd the courage to crawl out of the gutters.
The never in "Never Again" only lasted 80 years it seems...

But noo don't blame ketamine. Blame Musk!