Fascists in Palermo

Orwellian, when you make blanket statements comparing a guy who managed to stay in power through intimidation and downright bullying and terror tactics to executive orders a US president uses, you negate a lot of other arguments you make that may have some sense.

As an example, if you read more about the executive order he's talking about using for "going around Congress" to get his appointees in place, you would know that that is only a temporary fix for him - those appointees still must be approved, the next time the congress is in session. Considering that he's not doing that right now, it would be later in the year and he will likely face extreme opposition for some of those appointments that he would try to slip by when he doesn't have nearly the strong majority he does right now.

In our country, the president is not above the law. He, like every other person elected to office, can use things allowed by law in anyway they see fit - until the law is changed. Recess appointments are there so the government can keep going even when Congress isn't in session, but those appointments are always going to be reviewed. It's called checks and balances.

As far as any other executive decree issued, they must be constitutional and not against the law.

Your comparison of what Obama is possibly going to do is much like your statement that Americans have killed 1 million Iraqis in the war - even though that particular estimate was made by a group (very independent, to be sure) who only interviewed some 1700 households, while another, more comprehensive poll that interviewed some 9000 households came up with a number around 100K deaths (and comes close to other polls and estimates made) - many caused by terrorist bombs and violense, much less by drones and US gunfire directly. And btw - both polls on the death toll I am talking about agreed in more or less on the percentages of roadside bombs and other terrorist violence, as opposed to US troops killing people through drones or incidental fire.

I'm not saying that 100K is an acceptable figure either, but also, you always fail to mention the other side - how many people Saddam himself killed during his reign. Neither one making a wrong or a right, but you present only what you want to to make your points.

And just to make antoher statement - I abhor the way that Bush got us into that war - there is no doubt in my mind that he and his cronies (including Powell) distorted facts out of all recognition to make their point.

You are so anti-US that you find the most extreme position and pursue it to the detriment of your argument.

The funny thing is, you don't even talk about (at least I haven't seen it) the fact that the Obama administration is going down the same path as the Bush administration related to civil liberties and tryingto argue that cell phone users have no reasonable expectation of privacy related to the whereabouts of their phones at any time and the government should not need a search warrant to get that information.

THAT is truly something despicable.
 
orwellian said:
So not only are you a hypocrite but totally incapable of admitting that you are wrong:

"Executive Orders do not require Congressional approval to take effect but they have the same legal weight as laws passed by Congress."

It says nothing about existing statues.

http://www.thisnation.com/question/040.html

That's not what I said, you're wrong again. Here is the definition of what an executive means, again you must of been sleeping in your high school civics class.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Executive+Order
 
Once in power he suppresses directly or indirectly all opposition and begins a program of actively buying of general populace, and particularly a group that had been left forgotten by the criollo aristocracy and the immigrants: I'm talking about the pre-existing NOT aristocratic criollo population, the "cabecitas negras" as blonde Eva referred to them.


Just that paragraph shows, clearly, your mala leche.
 
ElQueso said:
Orwellian, when you make blanket statements comparing a guy who managed to stay in power through intimidation and downright bullying and terror tactics to executive orders a US president uses, you negate a lot of other arguments you make that may have some sense.

Chavez keeps winning every election. How is that "staying in power through intimidation downright bullying and terror tactics"? I don't see it, please elaborate.
The issue was that Chavez rules by decree, just as a U.S president does.

ElQueso said:
As far as any other executive decree issued, they must be constitutional and not against the law.

Yes but here lies the problem. They are often not. Take executive order 12919 for example that Bush signed. It gives the president the right to declare martial law, not very constitutional.

ElQueso said:
many caused by terrorist bombs and violense, much less by drones and US gunfire directly. And btw - both polls on the death toll I am talking about agreed in more or less on the percentages of roadside bombs and other terrorist violence, as opposed to US troops killing people through drones or incidental fire.

Well a lot of "terrorist violence" is actually false flag attacks to justify the occupation and to try to get the different groups fight each other. Take this incident for example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4264614.stm

Two SAS soldiers shot 1 Iraqi policeman to death while they tried to arrest them. They were traveling dressed in Arab clothing with bombs and weapons. The Basra police refused orders from Baghdad to release them, so the English went in to the prison and got them by force.
Also, some witnesses claim that was is being reported as bombs going off in public places are many times U.S missiles shot from helicopters into a group of civilians in markets etc.

ElQueso said:
I'm not saying that 100K is an acceptable figure either, but also, you always fail to mention the other side - how many people Saddam himself killed during his reign. Neither one making a wrong or a right, but you present only what you want to to make your points.

And who supplied the weapons and gas that he used to kill his own people? And what country kept supplying him with weapons after he gassed 30 000 Kurds?
The United States may not have killed as many as 1 million, but surely they have committed genocide in Iraq.

ElQueso said:
You are so anti-US that you find the most extreme position and pursue it to the detriment of your argument.

No, what I did was point out the hypocrisy of HypocriteBob. That is not being "anti-American". If I was American it would be doing my patriotic duty to criticize the U.S government.

ElQueso said:
The funny thing is, you don't even talk about (at least I haven't seen it) the fact that the Obama administration is going down the same path as the Bush administration related to civil liberties and tryingto argue that cell phone users have no reasonable expectation of privacy related to the whereabouts of their phones at any time and the government should not need a search warrant to get that information.

THAT is truly something despicable.

But I do, I keep saying that Obama is just a continuation of Bush. He is no different.



gouchobob said:
That's not what I said, you're wrong again. Here is the definition of what an executive means, again you must of been sleeping in your high school civics class.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Executive+Order

Here is what it says on the link that you posted:

"Executive orders do not require congressional approval. Thus, the president can use them to set policy while avoiding public debate and opposition."

And:

"Most executive orders are issued under specific statutory authority from Congress..."

Meaning that some are not. Which make it exactly like what Chavez does.
 
Chávez can 'bypass' Congress and rule by decree in certain policy fields. However, authorization by Congress is necessary. This authorization is granted through a 'Ley Habilitante' (or 'Enabling Law') Authorization is usually temporary. No matter what one's opinion on Chávez as a president is, these decrees are product of the will of Congress and are completely legitimate.

In Argentina similar decrees have been used many presidents in the past (like Menem) and the Kirchner's have been using it to retain full discretional spending of the government budget. It's legal though...
 
ReemsterCARP said:
Chávez can 'bypass' Congress and rule by decree in certain policy fields. However, authorization by Congress is necessary. This authorization is granted through a 'Ley Habilitante' (or 'Enabling Law') Authorization is usually temporary. No matter what one's opinion on Chávez as a president is, these decrees are product of the will of Congress and are completely legitimate.

In Argentina similar decrees have been used many presidents in the past (like Menem) and the Kirchner's have been using it to retain full discretional spending of the government budget. It's legal though...

I think you have missed the point, sure it was authorized by the Congress there, of course only one party is represented, his. The question is rule by decree considered democratic or authoritarian mode of government. The answer to this is of course it is considered an authoritarian mode.
 
gouchobob said:
I think you have missed the point, sure it was authorized by the Congress there, of course only one party is represented, his. The question is rule by decree considered democratic or authoritarian mode of government. The answer to this is of course it is considered an authoritarian mode.

Just so you get your facts straight about Venezuela: In 1999, when Chávez wanted to pass his first 'enabling law' his party only had a minority share in Congress. The last enabling law (dating from 2007) was passed by an overwhelming majority in Congress, due to the opposition boicot of the 2005 Congressional Elections (because of alleged fraude - although no international observers supported those claims).

About the decree as a method: I do not consider it to be authoritarian when granted by Congress and limited in both time and scope.
 
gouchobob said:
I think you have missed the point, sure it was authorized by the Congress there, of course only one party is represented, his. The question is rule by decree considered democratic or authoritarian mode of government. The answer to this is of course it is considered an authoritarian mode.


So since Congress does not need to authorize Executive Orders, do you agree that they are authoritarian ?
 
ReemsterCARP said:
Just so you get your facts straight about Venezuela: In 1999, when Chávez wanted to pass his first 'enabling law' his party only had a minority share in Congress. The last enabling law (dating from 2007) was passed by an overwhelming majority in Congress, due to the opposition boicot of the 2005 Congressional Elections (because of alleged fraude - although no international observers supported those claims).

About the decree as a method: I do not consider it to be authoritarian when granted by Congress and limited in both time and scope.

What was limited in the scope of the powers given Hugo? Powers were given him to completely revamp the country, not democratic and definitely authoritarian. Its getting more authoritarian there by the day. I don't know how anybody could not acknowledge this (other than the Orwellian). Any pretense that this is a democratic government is quickly fading away.
 
Hey HypocriteBob, why can't you ever admit you are wrong?
And can you please tell us how it's getting more authoritarian in Venezuela? Because I know for a fact that they never had more elections than under Chavez.
 
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