Finally, A Real Breakfast In Buenos Aires!

[ajoknoblauch]

Then ist me the one who talks always of politics. It was an innocent comment of food in BsAs.

And dont get what you say. You should have lived in this country under other governments. This is the best government in Argentine history, probably with Alfonsin (despite the way it ended). It is better than the militars, than Menem, than the third Peron. And we have to go to the 60s to find something similar.

whats the problem Boivians voting, could you explain? or are you a racist xenophobic that think Bolivians come here to steal argentine work? Whats the problem if they get free land? dont they deserve a decent place to live, better than a villa? whats the problem with open elections? This country has a very good democracy where we do not have fraud or fishy elections like the US with your love Bush.

If this is the best government in Argentine history, that's a sad commentary on the country.

 

[Matiasba]

If this is the best government in Argentine history, that's a sad commentary on the country.

Since the 60s, this is the best government, with Alfonsin (despite ended tragically). The thing is that you dont have a lot much. You have the militars, 3rd Peron, Menem, De la Rua...
There are lots of things I dont like about the Ks, but this is the first government in decades that got people out of poverty, instead of getting them into it. The poverty have been growing since the 70s, unstoppably. We started with historical numbers, 5%, 6% and then finished with 54% in 2001. Now we re in 25% or so. These are numbers beyond this government. Same with employment, same with industry, same with inclusion. We have heavy effective social plans for the first time! Plus Human Rights development, etc, this government are all those things.

 

[EdRooney]

ARG may have crappy governments but just about all of them are better than any recent UK or US government, just in terms of countries bombed/invaded.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Since the 60s, this is the best government, with Alfonsin (despite ended tragically). The thing is that you dont have a lot much. You have the militars, 3rd Peron, Menem, De la Rua...
There are lots of things I dont like about the Ks, but this is the first government in decades that got people out of poverty, instead of getting them into it. The poverty have been growing since the 70s, unstoppably. We started with historical numbers, 5%, 6% and then finished with 54% in 2001. Now we re in 25% or so. These are numbers beyond this government. Same with employment, same with industry, same with inclusion. We have heavy effective social plans for the first time! Plus Human Rights development, etc, this government are all those things.

Through its traditional Peronist clientelism and disregard for education, this government is reinforcing poverty - no matter what it claims to prove with its bogus statistics.

 

[Matiasba]

Through its traditional Peronist clientelism and disregard for education, this government is reinforcing poverty - no matter what it claims to prove with its bogus statistics.

It is not this government statistics, its IMF, World Bank and UN.
The governments before invested 2% of GDP in education, this one 6,5%
Clientelism is common in Argentina since Yrigoyen, back in the 20s, and nobody could end it, or really wanted to end it. Not even the miitars. Besides, I alreasy talked here on clientelism. I consider clientelism, politics in a pure form. Its simply an exchange of favours. Thats politics. You give me this and I give you that. And its not a choripan as many says, that underestimate poor people. The punteros, very common in villas and poorer zones, are the people who manage and give social plans, but also the reference when this people have any trouble. For instance, high fever of one of their sons, they dont call a doctor, they dont go to hospitals, they go at 3 AM and knock the door of the punteros house, so he can from now on be in charge of the situation, hes going to call an ambulance, or take them to the hospital. This is how clientelism works, as you see is far from one choripan, this is how peronismo historically works in this country, this is what we call, aparato, base social. This is how INTENDENTES DEL CONURBANO (who deal with the most poor people) get a name.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

It is not this government statistics, its IMF, World Bank and UN.
The governments before invested 2% of GDP in education, this one 6,5%
Clientelism is common in Argentina since Yrigoyen, back in the 20s, and nobody could end it, or really wanted to end it. Not even the miitars. Besides, I alreasy talked here on clientelism. I consider clientelism, politics in a pure form. Its simply an exchange of favours. Thats politics. You give me this and I give you that. And its not a choripan as many says, that underestimate poor people. The punteros, very common in villas and poorer zones, are the people who manage and give social plans, but also the reference when this people have any trouble. For instance, high fever of one of their sons, they dont call a doctor, they dont go to hospitals, they go at 3 AM and knock the door of the punteros house, so he can from now on be in charge of the situation, hes going to call an ambulance, or take them to the hospital. This is how clientelism works, as you see is far from one choripan, this is how peronismo historically works in this country, this is what we call, aparato, base social. This is how INTENDENTES DEL CONURBANO (who deal with the most poor people) get a name.

Wouldn't it be better if they could just call the hospital themselves? Why have the got to go to some noqui's house so he can allow an ambulance in?

That guy is a leech, not adding any value. That's the problem, too many noquis doing nothing for something.

These people aren't qualified, this is institutionalised corruption. The fact that a sociology graduate from the best state university thinks it's ok is a testament to how noqui-fied the system is. Classic Argentina, too many hands in the pot looking for a cut without doing anything productive to help the people that really need it.

People won't consent to be governed or obey laws/rules unless they get their slice. It's government by institutionalised corruption.

In most countries in the world Oyarbide would be sacked, Zannini and his bent cronies would be resigning, but not here. It's ok to play dirty and be corrupt here. If you're unlucky or not subtle enough you'll be up in court 20 years later Menem, but no worries it'll be a wrap on the wrists.

Choreando...built into the system, passed on through the universities and the lie sold to the people from Peron and on.

Still, bacon..or something.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

Then ist me the one who talks always of politics. It was an innocent comment of food in BsAs.

And dont get what you say. You should have lived in this country under other governments. This is the best government in Argentine history, probably with Alfonsin (despite the way it ended). It is better than the militars, than Menem, than the third Peron. And we have to go to the 60s to find something similar.

whats the problem Boivians voting, could you explain? or are you a racist xenophobic that think Bolivians come here to steal argentine work? Whats the problem if they get free land? dont they deserve a decent place to live, better than a villa? whats the problem with open elections? This country has a very good democracy where we do not have fraud or fishy elections like the US with your love Bush.

Matias,

My post was tongue-in-cheek (humor) aimed to reflect your automatic support of the current government. I didn't intend to offend you but your response proved the joke.

For the record, I'm not a Bush-lover and there are a lot of very smart and informed people that would have a serious issue with your comment about "no fraud or fishy elections here in Argentina."

 

[Matiasba]

Wouldn't it be better if they could just call the hospital themselves? Why have the got to go to some noqui's house so he can allow an ambulance in?

That guy is a leech, not adding any value. That's the problem, too many noquis doing nothing for something.

These people aren't qualified, this is institutionalised corruption. The fact that a sociology graduate from the best state university thinks it's ok is a testament to how noqui-fied the system is. Classic Argentina, too many hands in the pot looking for a cut without doing anything productive to help the people that really need it.

People won't consent to be governed or obey laws/rules unless they get their slice. It's government by institutionalised corruption.

In most countries in the world Oyarbide would be sacked, Zannini and his bent cronies would be resigning, but not here. It's ok to play dirty and be corrupt here. If you're unlucky or not subtle enough you'll be up in court 20 years later Menem, but no worries it'll be a wrap on the wrists.

Choreando...built into the system, passed on through the universities and the lie sold to the people from Peron and on.

Still, bacon..or something.

Look, Im not saying its ok, Im just saying its just politics. This is how real world works. The poor people that live in a villa take their sick kids to a puntero cause he is the one that solve these problems. And also because of the ignorance of these people. Some of them do not know anything about hospitals, or how does it work, or what you must do. They just relay on the person who gives them a good portion of the money they earn, and/or social plans. Dont expect these people to have a normal western middle class behaviour, like knowing how the city works, doctors, etc. They are the poorer people from Bolivia and Paraguay, from rural zones, who travelled to another civilization practically. They are surprised with elevators!
Or if they do know, it is way more easy to go to a puntero. They know that they can succeed in the capital, they can get a home, a job, earn much more money than in their home country. They k now that happens, because people they know who came before did that. So there is indeed some progress, thats why they keep coming.

And not necesarily a puntero is a ñoqui. A puntero can be workaholic, they are different things. Ñoqui is the one who does not work and earn a salary (on the 29th they pick it up, thats why they are called ñoquis).

Puntero is people who get immersed into this poverty, into these poor people, and give them solutions expecting votes. Traditionally linked with Peronismo, every party have them today. I know, from the time I worked with Macri, how this operates in Pro, with the villas in Quilmes, with the barra brava de Boca.
Every party, every political leader (Moyano, Barrionuevo, Macri, Massa, Capitanich and a long etc) has these masses. "los muchachos", their own barra brava, thugs.

This work like this wwith the sindicates, with politics, with everything. Is it corruption? Im not sure, it certainly is a drift of how is suppose to work, but nothing works in reality as it is planned, and if we re talking of politics, more.

 

[EdRooney]

The reason why so many expats here from Europe/US/Oz rail against the clientelism aspect of Argentine politics is that they do not realise that their own countries' politics are even more clientelistic. The difference is though, the clients whom the politicians serve in the US, for example, are CEOs of banks and multi-national corporations. (that's not an opinion; it's a well documented fact: the top 0.1% income bracket in the US pretty much gets any policy they want implemented).

Having been excluded from the clientelism of their own governments, they are shocked when they see it here, in a more crude form, with the beneficiaries being the "unwashed masses". But Matías is right, all politics is clientelism.

 

[Bkentfc]

The reason why so many expats here from Europe/US/Oz rail against the clientelism aspect of Argentine politics is that they do not realise that their own countries' politics are even more clientelistic. The difference is though, the clients whom the politicians serve in the US, for example, are CEOs of banks and multi-national corporations. (that's not an opinion; it's a well documented fact: the top 0.1% income bracket in the US pretty much gets any policy they want implemented).

Having been excluded from the clientelism of their own governments, they are shocked when they see it here, in a more crude form, with the beneficiaries being the "unwashed masses". But Matías is right, all politics is clientelism.

Nice one roons!! it called rent-seeking in that neck of the woods... its just that the population over there are above the poverty line so "exclusion" as you put it is not as drastic as it would in economically repressed countries.