Forbes: (Argentina) Economic activity is almost dead and inflation is not even near to be defeated," he

Ries

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#21
Again, Austerity has not worked, anywhere.
Classic Austerity programs suffocate the economy, and result in downward spirals.

they do, however, get conservatives elected, which may be one reason they are popular with certain politicians.
These politicians, in turn, are funded by the beneficiaries of Austerity- the financial sector, and the Oligarchs. Both of whom, in Argentina, support Macri.
Another, more extensive article about how austerity caused Brexit-
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo.../cage/manage/publications/381-2018_fetzer.pdf

Government borrowing, and spending on education, infrastructure, and building jobs and manufacturing is what has historically worked to get countries out of recession. Its how the US ended the depression. WW2 borrowing rebuilt the USA, and was not paid off until the Reagan presidency.
 
#22
Again, Austerity has not worked, anywhere.
Classic Austerity programs suffocate the economy, and result in downward spirals.

they do, however, get conservatives elected, which may be one reason they are popular with certain politicians.
These politicians, in turn, are funded by the beneficiaries of Austerity- the financial sector, and the Oligarchs. Both of whom, in Argentina, support Macri.
Another, more extensive article about how austerity caused Brexit-
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo.../cage/manage/publications/381-2018_fetzer.pdf

Government borrowing, and spending on education, infrastructure, and building jobs and manufacturing is what has historically worked to get countries out of recession. Its how the US ended the depression. WW2 borrowing rebuilt the USA, and was not paid off until the Reagan presidency.
But didn't IMF induced austerity work in Israel and isn't it working in Serbia now?
 
#23
Government borrowing, and spending on education, infrastructure, and building jobs and manufacturing is what has historically worked to get countries out of recession
You are being too abstract on your idea because in the Argentine context there is too much corruption in the country that lacks the vision to put borrowed money into use so the only way to discipline the policy makers in the Casa Rosada and Argentine public for that matter is to restrict and control their reckless borrowing and spending until there is a fundamental change in their understanding of money and the cost of borrowed money, I asked you to give me a concrete example, where is it? Talk about borrowing more on top what Argentina has already borrowed and then show me the solution to Argentina's current twin deficit. Thank you.
 

Ries

Registered
#24
Corruption in Argentina, like corruption in the USA, is on the level of Oligarchs doing deals with their pet politicians. Like the 20 plus years they have been "building" the Sarmiento line.
The idea that the average Argentine is a corrupt, lazy, child who cannot work is simply imperialism. Its not true. The problems are structural, and they were created intentionally to benefit the 30 or so richest families, who still own most of everything, and who still are not taxed on the vast majority of their wealth or income.

I have never been asked for a bribe for anything here, nor have customs agents taken a percentage of the stuff in my suitcase- both of which happen in countries that are really "corrupt".

Austerity has failed, every time its been used, because its not an actual economic theory- its either ideology, or an attempt to "punish" the working people, cynically ignoring the rich, who continue to prosper.

Israel, in the early 50s, did not have Austerity- they had government controlled rationing, and price and wage controls, much like the US or the UK during WW2. It was a survival technique, not an economic policy to reduce debt. And real economists consider it a failure. The debt in Israel was paid off when government-private partnerships began exporting high tech, mostly military, hardware.
Serbia is an Autocratic single person ruled state- to consider it a "success" because the completely non-transparent government has reduced some external debt, while taking over many industries and selling others to rich friends, and destroying the democratic process, is, well, dreaming.

Punishing the working class, rather than taxing the actual wealth flows, and avoiding structural reform of the financial industries, is a sham. It doesnt increase the health of the economy- it leads to cynical "revolutions" like Brexit. The UK economy, after Austerity, is mostly worse, except for the foreign cash that flows thru multinationals in the City.
 
#25
I have never been asked for a bribe for anything here, nor have customs agents taken a percentage of the stuff in my suitcase- both of which happen in countries that are really "corrupt".
Do you own a business here? If you do surely you have been asked for a bribe. We owned an almacen for four years and were forced to hand over money to make bogus situations go away multiple times. That's not a one off, all the stores around ours were the same. I know people who passed their driving license here by simply handing over cash to the instructor. Numerous times people have come to the house to fix something and play tricky with the money. For example, quoting the job will cost X amount and then playing dumb on that quote when the time to pay comes.

In fact, the seeping down of corruption has caused the apathetic nature of customer-oriented roles in Argentina. Yes, the people have been beaten down by the system here, but many of them have jumped on the same ride.
 
#26
tightening the belt is a very vague prescription.
in most cases it means austerity, which means screwing the working class.
This didnt work in the GB, its failed in Kansas, its a flop in Greece, and it has not worked anywhere else its been tried.
If by "tighten the belt" you mean tax the wealthy more, make the tax system more transparent and efficient, encourage job producing business instead of financial shell games by hedge funds, sure- I am with you.
In the 11 years I have owned property here, I have seen bureaucracy lessen, corruption decrease, and significant infrastructure improvements- which the UK and the USA are unable to do.
I would suggest that, rather than taxing exports, the government encourage them. I would suggest streamlining the ridiculous export duty and customs systems, which add between 10% and 100% "friction" to exports.

Argentina has a lot of viable exports- the shoe industry, along with textiles and clothing, a wide variety of metalworking, including agricultural equipment, tools, hardware, along with furniture, jewelry, and culture- film, music, theater, dance, etc.

In every case, the government impedes exports of these things.
I know people in many different fields who have told me first person stories (anecdotes, yes, but true ones by people in the fields) of how ridiculously hard it is to send a performing arts troupe abroad, to export argentine made products, to travel to international trade shows, and so on.

The country needs jobs, tax income, positive foreign exchange flows, and healthy local manufacturing.
Most european countries,and, even the feeble USA, have government agencies that help local exporters. The Argentine government actively hinders.

Also, we need a middle ground between 100% duties on imports, or the replacement value in exports rule, that we had under K, and the open market to importing chinese trash that Macri wants.
Complete open borders will decimate argentine industry and jobs- we will end up like Uruguay, where everything for sale is Chinese, and all they sell is money laundering and tourism.
Complete isolationism is not workable.
A balance that supports the local industries with targeted tariffs, while allowing things like Iphones and laptops in, which Argentina does not and will not manufacture, with some tariffs, is what is needed.

In other words, a middle ground.

Again, Austerity has not worked, anywhere.
Classic Austerity programs suffocate the economy, and result in downward spirals.

they do, however, get conservatives elected, which may be one reason they are popular with certain politicians.
These politicians, in turn, are funded by the beneficiaries of Austerity- the financial sector, and the Oligarchs. Both of whom, in Argentina, support Macri.
Another, more extensive article about how austerity caused Brexit-
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo.../cage/manage/publications/381-2018_fetzer.pdf

Government borrowing, and spending on education, infrastructure, and building jobs and manufacturing is what has historically worked to get countries out of recession. Its how the US ended the depression. WW2 borrowing rebuilt the USA, and was not paid off until the Reagan presidency.
Exactly This.
 
#27
Corruption in Argentina, like corruption in the USA, is on the level of Oligarchs doing deals with their pet politicians. Like the 20 plus years they have been "building" the Sarmiento line.
The idea that the average Argentine is a corrupt, lazy, child who cannot work is simply imperialism. Its not true. The problems are structural, and they were created intentionally to benefit the 30 or so richest families, who still own most of everything, and who still are not taxed on the vast majority of their wealth or income.

I have never been asked for a bribe for anything here, nor have customs agents taken a percentage of the stuff in my suitcase- both of which happen in countries that are really "corrupt".

Austerity has failed, every time its been used, because its not an actual economic theory- its either ideology, or an attempt to "punish" the working people, cynically ignoring the rich, who continue to prosper.

Israel, in the early 50s, did not have Austerity- they had government controlled rationing, and price and wage controls, much like the US or the UK during WW2. It was a survival technique, not an economic policy to reduce debt. And real economists consider it a failure. The debt in Israel was paid off when government-private partnerships began exporting high tech, mostly military, hardware.
Serbia is an Autocratic single person ruled state- to consider it a "success" because the completely non-transparent government has reduced some external debt, while taking over many industries and selling others to rich friends, and destroying the democratic process, is, well, dreaming.

Punishing the working class, rather than taxing the actual wealth flows, and avoiding structural reform of the financial industries, is a sham. It doesnt increase the health of the economy- it leads to cynical "revolutions" like Brexit. The UK economy, after Austerity, is mostly worse, except for the foreign cash that flows thru multinationals in the City.
Finally someone who actually understands history, economics, and the political sciences. I've had no time to dedicate to this forum recently as am mega busy. I have read a lot of the unfortunate commentary from the usual suspects however.

Thanks for balancing things out Ries! ;=)
 
#28
The idea that the average Argentine is a corrupt, lazy, child who cannot work is simply imperialism.
Have you not lived or traveled enough to tell the difference between an average Argentine and the rest of the world? Come on. And it's not necessarily the fault of a young Argentine to not have any work ethics today when they struggle to perform at a work place, is this why there is a law that doesn't allow to fire someone who truly needs to be fired? Maybe it has to do with the fact that half the country would then have to be fired?

We are speaking of a mass-scale cultural rot whether you like to admit this or not, much like the cultural rot among African American communities in certain parts of the United States where the child is almost expected to be a child of a single mother with no father figure in their lives and no sense of responsibility in their adulthood. Why is it such a crime to come out and call things for what they are?

You keep talking against austerity as if it the villain and the cause of all problems in Argentina. The fact is that Argentines had happily borrowed beyond their means and squandered all the money that they could have invested in education and infrastructure, this reminds me of Palestinians who in the past decade received billions of dollars in foreign aid and wasted it all on underground terror tunnels in order to sneak into Israel and cause violence instead of investing in infrastructure, why does this happen you may ask? Because of culture! They cannot get over their own internal dialog pertaining to how much of a victim they are, they cannot come to terms with the new reality on the ground and peace with their neighbors, but instead there are no compromises and no desire to negotiate. Only stubborn irrational culture can explain such rot and because of that such culture must end there as well as here in Argentina.

There needs to be a moment of truth to tell the Argentine people to accept the law and pay up! Argentines should learn work ethics and educate their children to cultivate passion for work and creativity, they need to learn the value of money instead of flirting with the idea of stealing from those who are better off than themselves and in the process of all this the new generation will come to tackle corruption because by then they won't longer support the political structure that rewards endless money laundering, by then they would march the streets for transparency and accountability and not be willing to behave like hypocrites the way it is today; on one hand complaining and on the other hand turning a blind eye -- freeing themselves of any responsibility in the process, how convenient.
 
#29
Finally someone who actually understands history, economics, and the political sciences. I've had no time to dedicate to this forum recently as am mega busy. I have read a lot of the unfortunate commentary from the usual suspects however.

Thanks for balancing things out Ries! ;=)
Let's just stick to the debate and stay away from disqualifying terms like "unfortunate" and "usual suspects." Just because someone does not agree with you that does not make their commentary "unfortunate" and that does not make them one of the "usual suspects," another degrading term in this context.
 
#30
Let's just stick to the debate and stay away from disqualifying terms like "unfortunate" and "usual suspects." Just because someone does not agree with you that does not make their commentary "unfortunate" and that does not make them one of the "usual suspects," another degrading term in this context.
I'm just trying to point out that the vast majority, or at least the loudest, of those who contribute on economic issue here are from the right, neo-liberal, or even libertarian schools of though. The same people are always banding around terms like 'socialist' to those who disagree with them on the centre left. And much worse mischaracterizations that that too.

I'd be happy not to follow suit, if those members do the same. Otherwise i'll probably maintain equality through wisecracks now and then.

As a side note, 'degrading' seems a little strong as a description of my commentary. I suspect that from your (US?) vernacular it comes across differently from the UK one.

Additionally, when Ries has given substantive points on austerity and economic policy, for example. Or when I have, in other threads, given actual data and academic research on similar issues, these same 'usual suspects' I'm referencing here, often lambaste, call us names like socialist, paint non neo-liberals as left wing loony Maduro defenders, for example.

And, more importantly, ignore much of the presented data and analysis and just pick one minor issue to 'write back' about, then usually return to the same discredited talking points.

I'm pretty sure you haven't done this yourself, though I haven't checked.

Before we defend others its wise to remember the adage, those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks. (or in this case, don't defend rock throwers against people throwing pebbles back?)

That's my view on it anyway...

Cheers!
 
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