Foreigners may be forced to pay for free health care while in the country.

#41
They should be checking for documentation and records...
Who should be checking? Where? At the hospitals when patients go there? Don't you think getting this right across the country may cost more resources and tax money than what they'd save by cutting off the freeloading?

Also, I thought you wanted to allow services to everyone who is actually 'living' in Argentina, regardless of whether they are legal or illegal. That's my stand too. How'd you manage that if you bring immigration checking into hospitals?

I understand your sentiment and the feeling of injustice, but I guess there is no quick fix.
 
#42
The question is simple - are Argentinians willing to accept longer wait times, poorer service and infrastructure, fatigued staff and low quality equipment in the name of protecting this archaic idea that the country should have an open border policy with its neighbours who happen to live in worse conditions. What is the purpose of having borders at all if the country is built on the idea that anyone from nearby can move here with no issues at all? The idea of mass migration worked in its infancy when countries required people to settle and develop the country - now countries have the basic necessities and migration has turned into a what can the country give me game - not what can I give the country.
 

nikad

Registered
#43
Who should be checking? Where? At the hospitals when patients go there? Don't you think getting this right across the country may cost more resources and tax money than what they'd save by cutting off the freeloading?

Also, I thought you wanted to allow services to everyone who is actually 'living' in Argentina, regardless of whether they are legal or illegal. That's my stand too. How'd you manage that if you bring immigration checking into hospitals?

I understand your sentiment and the feeling of injustice, but I guess there is no quick fix.
Of course I think legal and illegal RESIDENTS should get health services. Not LEECHERS. Immigration should be monitoring border activity in greater detail.
 
#44
Of course I think legal and illegal RESIDENTS should get health services. Not LEECHERS. Immigration should be monitoring border activity in greater detail.
Apologies nikad, but I still cannot get my head around the idea. Are we talking about Jujuy only or all public hospitals in the country? Should they check medical history at borders or immigration records at hospitals? Are we assuming those who want to leech off the system will express their intention at the border? Should we create a separate line at the border for visibly pregnant women and seriously ill people? And only for citizens of Bolivia? At certain border points or in all airports and land borders? How'd that go with non-discrimination, human rights or free movement agreements?

The question is simple - are Argentinians willing to accept longer wait times, poorer service and infrastructure, fatigued staff and low quality equipment in the name of protecting this archaic idea that the country should have an open border policy with its neighbours who happen to live in worse conditions. What is the purpose of having borders at all if the country is built on the idea that anyone from nearby can move here with no issues at all? The idea of mass migration worked in its infancy when countries required people to settle and develop the country - now countries have the basic necessities and migration has turned into a what can the country give me game - not what can I give the country.
You got it all mixed up. Trade blocs like Mercosur or free movement agreements that we hear now has nothing to do with the era of mass migration. These things are certainly not archaic, but new ideas. I can borrow a lot of lines from anti-Brexit arguments. If you join a club, you enjoy some benefits and you have some obligations etc. etc. I don't believe Argentina is thinking about leaving Mercosur to live in isolation and thereby lose all the advantages (present and future), lose the influence in regional decision making, lose the ability to influence politics of neighboring countries and let Brazil or another country take full control of the region.

Political and economic realities are much more complex than just saying 'immigrants are the problem, let's ban them'.
 

nikad

Registered
#45
Apologies nikad, but I still cannot get my head around the idea. Are we talking about Jujuy only or all public hospitals in the country? Should they check medical history at borders or immigration records at hospitals? Are we assuming those who want to leech off the system will express their intention at the border? Should we create a separate line at the border for visibly pregnant women and seriously ill people? And only for citizens of Bolivia? At certain border points or in all airports and land borders? How'd that go with non-discrimination, human rights or free movement agreements?

Political and economic realities are much more complex than just saying 'immigrants are the problem, let's ban them'.
Not sure where you are from? There are charter buses bringing people in just to go to hospitals... Would the be welcome or allowed in your country? They want the benefits but not the obligations. Legal and illegal residents pay taxes here. I have never heard of any country that welcomes people that have this attitude. Have you? Bolivia, Peru. Paraguay. I would tighten controls at both borders and hospitals. Whatever you say about non discrimination, human rights, etc name countries where this behavior is encouraged please.
 
#46
Not sure where you are from? There are charter buses bringing people in just to go to hospitals... Would the be welcome or allowed in your country? They want the benefits but not the obligations. Legal and illegal residents pay taxes here. I have never heard of any country that welcomes people that have this attitude. Have you? Bolivia, Peru. Paraguay. I would tighten controls at both borders and hospitals. Whatever you say about non discrimination, human rights, etc name countries where this behavior is encouraged please.
nikad, in my last few posts in this thread since Dr. bajo_cero suggested database checking for records, I have not once denied the existence of the problem. There is no need to explain the extent of the problem repeatedly. Because I asked a lot of questions, it doesn't mean that they were rhetorical. I pointed out the problem with the solutions in sight and genuinely wanted to know what you or any other member think of that.

The last line in my previous post was directed to Somewhereinba's message, and not you. But it could be related to the overall picture. My country doesn't have any free movement agreement with any other country. But I guess citizens of most west European countries sometimes feel a similar level of unfairness about the influx of people from poorer east European countries. People in UK were so pissed off, they opted for the nuclear option and are now crashing out of the bloc. Probably some Russians feel that same about people from Belarus.

The reality is that Argentina has free movement agreements (through bloc or bilateral) with some neighboring countries whose public medical infrastructures are poorer in comparison. The gap is HUGE. Probably that's what makes this particular problem of Argentina unique in the world. As a country, Argentina has every right to decide who they allow to enter its territory. However once you have free movement agreements, you cannot say you want just cheap labor and probably fruits, but not pregnant women. Discrimination, human rights etc. becomes a question ONLY at that moment.

I don't believe that Argentina is in Mercosur or has free movement agreements with those countries only for humanitarian reasons. It surely is enjoying some economic or political benefits. Again it's Argentina's choice to sign those agreements. It would be foolish to think Bolivia doesn't have bargaining chips.


My questions to you as well as all concerned members -

1. If more rigorous checking at borders and hospitals across the country costs much more resources than what would be saved by preventing busload of patients from Bolivia or Peru, should government still go for it?

2. If more rigorous checking at the hospitals makes it harder for people who are actually living in Argentina (albeit lacking documents), would you support that?

3. Should they make it equally harder for all foreigners, or for only citizens of Bolivia, Peru and Paraguay? Would you support the latter?

4. Should Argentina rip off all free movement agreements and leave blocs with that kind of obligation?
 
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#47
RandomS - Should they make it equally harder for all foreigners, or for only citizens of Bolivia, Peru and Paraguay? Would you support the latter?

I support federal legislation that establishes reimbursements for medical services provided thru the ARG free health care system to any temporary resident regardless of their country of origin. In the case of emergency care, those services would be exempted from reimbursement.

28 February 2018
In Misiones, foreigners must pay for scheduled surgeries and high-complexity studies

http://losandes.com.ar/article/view...cirugias-programadas-y-los-estudios-complejos
Confirmed by the Ramón Madariaga school hospital, where more than 30% of the patients being treated are Paraguayan.

28 February 2018
In What Countries is Health Free for Foreigners like in ARG?

http://borderperiodismo.com/2018/02...es-gratis-para-extranjeros-como-en-argentina/
In America, only two others attend to tourists or non-resident migrants at no cost: Paraguay and Brazil. In the rest of the region there are ins plans that must be paid in advance, invoices later and even direct costs for all. Most guarantee attention in an emergency.
 
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nikad

Registered
#48
My questions to you as well as all concerned members -

1. If more rigorous checking at borders and hospitals across the country costs much more resources than what would be saved by preventing busload of patients from Bolivia or Peru, should government still go for it?

2. If more rigorous checking at the hospitals makes it harder for people who are actually living in Argentina (albeit lacking documents), would you support that?

3. Should they make it equally harder for all foreigners, or for only citizens of Bolivia, Peru and Paraguay? Would you support the latter?

4. Should Argentina rip off all free movement agreements and leave blocs with that kind of obligation?
1- Yes. It will help create new jobs, or re assign existing employees from the federal administration.

2- It should not be hard to prove you have ties to the country and reside in the country. All hospitals have social workers that can verify it, or get proof of domicile issued by the Police dept.

3- While I believe that most people leeching the system are coming from bordering countries, I think it would be discriminatory, so yes, checking should be equal for all foreigners accessing the public health system that do not have residency or work permits ( unless it is an emergency of course ).

4- No. Free movement is one thing, leeching a country's system is a different story.
 
#49
RandomS - Should they make it equally harder for all foreigners, or for only citizens of Bolivia, Peru and Paraguay? Would you support the latter?

I support federal legislation that establishes reimbursements for medical services provided thru the ARG free health care system to any temporary resident regardless of their country of origin. In the case of emergency care, those services would be exempted from reimbursement.

28 February 2018
In Misiones, foreigners must pay for scheduled surgeries and high-complexity studies

http://losandes.com.ar/article/view...cirugias-programadas-y-los-estudios-complejos
Confirmed by the Ramón Madariaga school hospital, where more than 30% of the patients being treated are Paraguayan.

28 February 2018
In What Countries is Health Free for Foreigners like in ARG?

http://borderperiodismo.com/2018/02...es-gratis-para-extranjeros-como-en-argentina/
In America, only two others attend to tourists or non-resident migrants at no cost: Paraguay and Brazil. In the rest of the region there are ins plans that must be paid in advance, invoices later and even direct costs for all. Most guarantee attention in an emergency.
Do you have any idea of what Federal law is?
Because as far as I see is all province laws and decrees.
 
#50
Bajo_cero2 - Do you have any idea of what Federal law is?

Yes...
Generally Federal Law means the body of law created by the federal government of a country and applies to everyone in that country.
Provincial (state) and local laws passed at that legislative level only apply to people who live or work in a particular province, state, commonwealth, territory, county, city, municipality, town, township or village.

Because as far as I see is all province laws and decrees.....
In my opinion, the phrase inadequately defines what is a federal law.