Give This Man A Medal.

[mc kenna]

I think some of us are missing the point,i don't think anyone here is against protesting, more so when you think your protest is justified.
What some of us are trying to express is that the protest can be done differently without stomping on someone else's right,as i recall i was tought that your rights end where the other person's rights beggins.
So if there is a protest on the side of the road with signs saying what the protest is about,i would not have a problem,but if you are driving down a road and all you see is people burning tires with their faces covered armed with sticks and rocks,now that's a complete different story.
No one is against the poor,but yes some of us are against anarchist behavior
Excersize your right to protest within the law and your protest will be a smooth straight to the point protest,anything else is percieved as ,your are out here to fu..k up my day and the round up the concept,since apparently we seem to forget, every right comes with an obligation in order to make this society function,lately some of us get the impression that piqueteros have only rights and no obligations

 

[Redpossum]

Redpossum, you've not been here very long,

Ah, this is always the first line of attack, "You haven't been here as long as we have, so you're not allowed to speak".

But one need not spend any specific length of time in any specific location to recognise the importance of basic human rights. And the right to petition for redress of grievances is a basic human right. Even if those perceived grievances are not valid, one still has the right to petition for redress.

I suspect your joy at the anarchy of Buenos Aires and wish that we all just enjoy the inconveniences of protest will soon fade.You can only have your path blocked down Callo and Corrientes so many times before you want to lose it -- that corner is basically out of service 90% of the year. 9 de Julio is a mess regularly, anywhere between Obelisco and Casa Rosada has crap going on like 3 nights a week, and every couple of months the Gral Paz and / or Panamericana get shut down. Somehow I think your appreciation of these acts would be somewhat different if you actually had to get in your car or on a bus everyday to get to the other side.

Why should the people protesting at a single company be allowed to cut off the entire Panamericana? This has been the case with IBM, Kraft foods, among others. Not only is it just plain dangerous to have people cutting off a lane of traffic which has a speed limit of 130km/hr, what do those driving past a private company have to do with employee complaints? I have seen so many near misses where people have been almost plowed over -- we've also witnessed piqueteros cutting off the highways to the coast on the long weekends -- and then chucking rocks from the pedestrian overpasses onto the cars below. Inconvenience -- puhlease, most of the actions are far more than an inconvenience, they are a danger to everyone. And then one day when you accidentally hit one of the protesters running out into the highway, it will end up being your fault not theirs.

You cite the most extreme example, generalise that to cover the entire position, and then demolish that extreme example. This is called a Strawman, which is a specific type of reductio ad absurdum, and it only works if the person you're debating is either too naive to recognise it, or too intimidated to call you on it. While the list of my virtues is undoubtedly a very short one, I am neither naive nor easily intimidated.

Friends of ours have lived near the Casa Rosada their entire lives, they put up with it, but they said it's gotten to the point you can't even leave the house most times because the people doing the protesting have become so unpredicatable you don't know when the violence will break out.

This is hearsay about anecdotal evidence.

You're obviously trying to be nice, and I do appreciate that. Please note that while I am attacking your position strongly, (that is, after all, how debate works), I have not attacked you personally.

 

[PhilipDT]

Ah, this is always the first line of attack, "You haven't been here as long as we have, so you're not allowed to speak".

If you had been here longer you'd have realized that what you wrote below is ridiculous.

You cite the most extreme example, generalise that to cover the entire position, and then demolish that extreme example. This is called a Strawman, which is a specific type of reductio ad absurdum, and it only works if the person you're debating is either too naive to recognise it, or too intimidated to call you on it. While the list of my virtues is undoubtedly a very short one, I am neither naive nor easily intimidated.

.... because blocking the Pan Americana, Callao & Corrientes & 9 de julio are not the most extreme examples, that's where the vast majority of the protests take place!

I went to lanacion.com.ar because I was going to tell you to look at the articles that show up in a search for 'corte total' here: http://buscar.lanacion.com.ar/corte%20total?filter=sitioid:1&sort=default

And guess what was coincidentally on the front page?

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1684424-corte-total-en-avenida-de-mayo-y-9-de-julio-por-una-protesta

 

[jp]

But one need not spend any specific length of time in any specific location to recognise the importance of basic human rights. And the right to petition for redress of grievances is a basic human right. Even if those perceived grievances are not valid, one still has the right to petition for redress.

You're missing the point. Nobody is challenging their right to protest. They are questioning their methods.

 

[citygirl]

Trying to draw a comparison between a repressive government that violates basic human rights, and a group of demonstrators that actually obliges you to drive a few blocks out of your way? Or maybe even, gods forbid, get out of your car and walk? <insert random laughing monkey pictures here>

A few blocks out of my way? I live in pvca and guess what, when they cut off highways, I can't get to where I need to go. And yes, it makes me rage-y. I once had my infant twins in the car, that I needed to take to a specialist in town, a specialist I had waited weeks for an appt, and I couldn't get there b/c the highways were blocked and traffic was backed up for hours. That's an extreme example but in general, my point is that my rights are no less than the right to protest. Oh yes, and get out of my car and walk was your other idea. Guess what, not all of us live in apts in town. And even if you do, again, people have the right to go about their lives just as much as people have to protest.

And again, they cut off highways. Not a small road in town. So it's not a question of driving a block out of your way.

PS - I never jumped down your throat. I pointed out that leaving the US b/c you were concerned about gov't intervention in daily life and choosing Argentina was perhaps not the best thought out of plans. But if you consider that jumping down your throat, have at it.

PPS - Let me reiterate since this point apparently gets missed ALL the time. People can protest. They should. But there are ways/places to do it.

 

[Redpossum]

If you had been here longer you'd have realized that what you wrote below is ridiculous.

See what I said above about this always being the first line of attack.

.... because blocking the Pan Americana, Callao & Corrientes & 9 de julio are not the most extreme examples, that's where the vast majority of the protests take place!

That's not what I was citing as "the most extreme example". This is what I was citing -

- we've also witnessed piqueteros cutting off the highways to the coast on the long weekends -- and then chucking rocks from the pedestrian overpasses onto the cars below. Inconvenience --

Of course I do not endorse throwing rocks at random motorists. But using the abuses of a few as justification to condemn everyone isn't something I can accept. Punishing the innocent many for the actions of the guilty few is not the action of a free society. It is an excuse for repression.

Ah, I love a good brisk debate!

 

[Joe]

I think that what Red is trying to say is that the protests don't inconvenience him so they shouldn't inconvenience you.

I'm not really inconvenienced by the protests either but I try to have compassion for the people that are working for a living, e.g. taxi cab drivers, deliveryman, moving companies, repairman or mothers just trying to get their children to and from school.

As I and others have said repeatedly, no one is suggesting that protest should be outlawed only that interfering with other people's right to get to and from their place of work or study in a timely fashion is against the law and the law should be enforced.

 

[mc kenna]

In order to have a debate,you first must inform yourself,watch,listen, read,ask questions on both sides of the fence,then you might beggin to form an opinion of your own,then you can start to have a conversation about it and many many moons later you might be able to debate with some knowledge of what you intent of communicate.In the meantime i would invite you to take the time to read what people that lived here longer are saying ,but really take the time and then ask questions.I don't doubt your principals and the solid foundation they stand on but take into account that you parachuted here 2 months ago and now you are going to tell us how things are here and how wrong we are.
Leave the debate for those who spent sometime here and use the discussion to learn something before passing judgement on people you don't know.No one jumped on your throat
Please review your paranoia levels
See i was able to get my point across without attacking you or using fancy latin words that not many of us are interested in learning or being impressed by your knowledge which by the way, most of it ,does not apply in this society here today
I'm really making an effort to like you man but seems to me you need to get off your high horse for awhile

 

[Redpossum]

I think that what Red is trying to say is that the protests don't inconvenience him so they shouldn't inconvenience you.

No, not at all. I'm saying that rights trump convenience.

 

[Joe]

No, not at all. I'm saying that rights trump convenience.

Would I have the right to stand in front of your apartment door, block your movement whilst protesting your ignorance about the gridlock caused by protests here - even if it inconvenienced you as you went to eat your leisurely lunch?