Greferendum

[ben]

If this previously linked article is at all accurate, the question becomes whether all this even matters - whether there will or won't be a bailout, on what terms, whatever. It paints a picture of an absolutely corroded and corrosive country - not just the state, but society on every level - that makes Argentina look like a paragon of stability and honesty by comparison. Doesn't sound like a place where anything will happen beyond more money getting sucked into a black hole and going bankrupt in the end anyhow.

Take the example of the spectacularly bankrupt railroad, where it is literally cheaper to send everyone by taxi than maintaining the railroad is at present, and where the with average salary is €65.000. Any attempt to reform that is unlikely to remain nonviolent. As the article notes, things have already gotten violent in the past. Now extrapolate to a whole country.

Is there an example of any country or society anywhere, ever, having gotten to this point and straightening itself out while remaining fully or even somewhat democratic?

 

[Sockhopper]

Oh, it matters alright to every European. It goes to the core of why the EU was formed! It reveals also a spitting disregard for the rule of law AND sovereignty. It's financial water-boarding of the poorest and their government first. Then of whichever is second or third or dares to resist the same horrors.

The angry side of me wants Tsipras to poke its finger at Germany by opening its banks tomorrow morning regardless of anything.

How are Greeks supposed to survive if German and Greek parliaments vote to agree with this asset-stripping which is already prematurely being presumed to be an 'agreement'?! Were I Greek and my parliament voted 'yes', I'd turn up at the German border claiming my EU immediate right of German residency IF my country didn't say "NO" yet again to this utter humiliation.

I was a student guest of the EU's institutions shortly after Greece joined the EU as a member state. I'm speechless awaking to each morning's news now. Whichever way this goes, a poisonous seed has been sown whose repercussions will be serious and enduring across EU countries inside or outside the euro zone. bOur very identity and how we perceive our own or another of our countries is affected. This frightens me most. We were never supposed to be ruled by banks. People mattered.

There's a tweet that says WWI was fought with manpower; WWII by tanks but WWIII by banks against all who aren't wealthy.

I need a break in BA from all this but the low value of my $CAD income against the $US and euro isn't permitting me one.

 

[Joe]

 

[Rich One]

Translation Please

Greece received what SHE deserved? Greece was assigned the place it deserves?

 

[ben]

The angry side of me wants Tsipras to poke its finger at Germany by opening its banks tomorrow morning regardless of anything.

Actually, it would seem that's exactly what the Germans would like as well: to have Greek banks go and open, and not have Greece coming to THEM for both forgiveness of the money that they've already lent them, and oh by the way some new cash.

People seem to have forgotten that small point: Germany wants nothing from Greece. Greece wants both new money and forgiveness of X billion euros that they've already purloined borrowed less than responsibly.

One can question the wisdom and perhaps even morality of having effectively given money to a drunkard, but the last person to complain about that is the drunkard himself. While asking for more booze.

One can also discuss the distinction between the Greek people, banks and government, but that's the thing: you don't get to work with 'the people' of a country, only with their government. To try to get as close as possible to dealing with the people, we have that whole elections/democracy thing. But a country has to be responsible to some extent for the actions of their own leaders, current and former. Certainly when those were duly elected.

How are Greeks supposed to survive if German and Greek parliaments vote to agree with this asset-stripping which is already prematurely being presumed to be an 'agreement'?!

Actually the idea behind the reforms being pushed is, at least ostensibly, to make the country more solvent in the future: at present, most of the Greek state is literally a black hole for money. To quote the article I linked before, "Where waste ends and theft begins almost doesn’t matter; the one masks and thus enables the other."

Reasonable people can disagree over the best way to solve this, or even how to label the solutions (is basic fiscal management 'austerity'?), but again - the Greeks don't get to have a say in this, they are alcoholics with regard to money.

Were I Greek and my parliament voted 'yes', I'd turn up at the German border claiming my EU immediate right of German residency IF my country didn't say "NO" yet again to this utter humiliation.

Actually, this may be a smart move: not to spite Germany, but simply to be in a much less corrupt place where it will be easier to live. Greece right now is in a bad place, largely of its own making. The humiliation already came, or ought to have, when Greece ceased to be able to manage its finances in any way. Other places might work better.

 

[Joe]

All this suffering on both sides was to a large extent unnecessary. Five years ago, if Greece had defaulted the German taxpayer would not be on the hook for all this money and Greece would have been forced to live within their means - like Argentina 15 years ago.

So why was it done, to bail out the private banks. To bail out very wealthy people so they wouldn't lose a cent.

In terms of fairness, the private banks should have suffered the loss because they made the loans with greed in their eyes of a high interest rate because of the high risk.

It is really a travesty of justice that poor people in Greece are having to suffer interminably just to bail out greedy banks.

 

[toongeorges]

Translation Please

Greece received what SHE deserved? Greece was assigned the place it deserves?

The second: Greece is shown/assigned its place.

The peeing statue is a Belgian/Brussels national monument, not a German one: https://en.wikipedia...ki/Manneken_Pis
It would be a reference to Brussels/the EU.

(Joe now has inspiration to start raging about a peeing statue.)

 

[ben]

Private banks have plenty of non-very-wealthy-people who invest with them. Why is everyone Madoff swindled poor, but victims of defaulted sovereign debt always stinking rich?

Whether European banks should have been bailed out is certainly a question, but one that has little to do with Greece - Greece would have been bankrupt then roughly as they are now.

 

[Rich One]

All this suffering on both sides was to a large extent unnecessary. Five years ago, if Greece had defaulted the German taxpayer would not be on the hook for all this money and Greece would have been forced to live within their means - like Argentina 15 years ago.

So why was it done, to bail out the private banks. To bail out very wealthy people so they wouldn't lose a cent.

In terms of fairness, the private banks should have suffered the loss because they made the loans with greed in their eyes of a high interest rate because of the high risk.

It is really a travesty of justice that poor people in Greece are having to suffer interminably just to bail out greedy banks.

On the other hand , there is suffering....

• when Argentina defaulted, thousand of retired Italians etc. lost all their small savings and 5 years later got 35 cents on the dollar ... no suffering?
• The Greek People swallowed for years billions of unearned Euros in loans and benefits .... not all went to corrupt Greek leaders pockets. (Appliances and benefits para Todos y Todas)
• If German and European private banks were let to collapse, the money lost, belonged to their Clients, by far not ALL of them Wealthy as you want to believe..? no suffering?

Poor innocent people that accept handouts from populist Governments that borrowed irresponsibility to stay in Power, will end up paying for the Gifts. Free for All--! Para Todos y Todas..!!

The million dollar question is who should suffer the loss the creditor or the borrower??

Morale; There is no Free Lunch

 

[Joe]

Except there does seem to be a Free Lunch - well if you're a wealthy banker...