Historic events that have changed Argentina

[Bajo_cero2]

The italian golondrina workers was a mayor issue:



However, Peron managed it to achieve that 66% of those temporary workers stayed in Argentina:


The conclusions of the homework you quote does not take in consideration this situation because her lack of hard data reliable like, for example, the obvious: the oficial info of the immigration deppartment.

In and outs, Italians are who go back home after they save some money. All the others stayed:
If you read the leadingg cases where anarchists were deported, they were Russian Jews and Spaniards, not italians.
The Semana Tragica was a conflic with the Union of Argentine Workers [were foreignera were excluded and the main issue because they worked for less money].

 

[Ries]

As you can see Italians and Spaniards were almost the same amount but with Italians were mainly temporary workers:
View attachment 5588
At the Rome conference of 1924, in which Mussolini intended to create a temporary employment agency managed by the totalitarian state in order to prevent migrants from joining our country, they continued sending money remittances to Italy as well as trying to create Italian colonies here. our national territory, which is why the Italian immigrants were declared undesirable by the United States, drastically reducing the quota that corresponded to them.

They have the same issue at the US and this is why they were declared undesirable immigrants.

If you mean we also had extreme racism in the USA, yes, you are correct. The USA was built, literally, on racism. Slaves built the White House and the Washington Monument.
But I see you have retreated from saying Italian immigration began with Peron, in 1946, to admitting that, as early as the 1890s, Italian immigration was a larger percentage of immigrants than any other source. Which is, of course, exactly what I was saying.

This odd idea that they were somehow "temporary" is funny- how, exactly, did "temporary" workers end up being, today, more than 50% of the population of the country?
In the entire history of immigration for the last two centuries, approximately 10% of all immigrants, to the USA and to South America, returned to their home countries, deciding they didnt like the new one. This is historically true, unless they were slaves, or there were horrible conditions at home- say, Stalin, or WW2. So, of course, a certain percentage of Italian immigrants to Argentina returned home, like the famous Mario Palanti.
But this is still true today- over 10% of Mexican immigrants to the USA retire back to Mexico, and similar things happen with many first generation immigrants to Argentina.

In the end though, you are still wrong that Italian immigration was not a very big factor in changing Argentina, starting in the 1880s.

And, to circle back- the Italian left wing labor movement, and the Semana Tragica, was a huge influence in creating the insider relationship between the sindicatos, the army, the church, and the oligarchs, the 4 legs of the Argentine economy and government for the last 80 years or so.
The Italians in 1919 were extreme leftists- hence the Semana Tragica, and the citywide Paro.
The powers that be- the Ricos, the Military- decided to violently put them down, and over time, negotiate with corrupt but manageable, more centrist Unions. That resulted in the oddball mix of Socialism and military dictatorship from the forties to the eighties that hugely impacted where we are today. Without the Italian anarchists, and the huge riots and strikes in 1919, things would be different. Hence, a Historic Event that Changed Argentina.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

If you mean we also had extreme racism in the USA, yes, you are correct. The USA was built, literally, on racism. Slaves built the White House and the Washington Monument.
But I see you have retreated from saying Italian immigration began with Peron, in 1946, to admitting that, as early as the 1890s, Italian immigration was a larger percentage of immigrants than any other source. Which is, of course, exactly what I was saying.

This odd idea that they were somehow "temporary" is funny- how, exactly, did "temporary" workers end up being, today, more than 50% of the population of the country?
In the entire history of immigration for the last two centuries, approximately 10% of all immigrants, to the USA and to South America, returned to their home countries, deciding they didnt like the new one. This is historically true, unless they were slaves, or there were horrible conditions at home- say, Stalin, or WW2. So, of course, a certain percentage of Italian immigrants to Argentina returned home, like the famous Mario Palanti.
But this is still true today- over 10% of Mexican immigrants to the USA retire back to Mexico, and similar things happen with many first generation immigrants to Argentina.

In the end though, you are still wrong that Italian immigration was not a very big factor in changing Argentina, starting in the 1880s.

And, to circle back- the Italian left wing labor movement, and the Semana Tragica, was a huge influence in creating the insider relationship between the sindicatos, the army, the church, and the oligarchs, the 4 legs of the Argentine economy and government for the last 80 years or so.
The Italians in 1919 were extreme leftists- hence the Semana Tragica, and the citywide Paro.
The powers that be- the Ricos, the Military- decided to violently put them down, and over time, negotiate with corrupt but manageable, more centrist Unions. That resulted in the oddball mix of Socialism and military dictatorship from the forties to the eighties that hugely impacted where we are today. Without the Italian anarchists, and the huge riots and strikes in 1919, things would be different. Hence, a Historic Event that Changed Argentina.

Peron acchieve to transform temporary workers into immigrants. I attached hard data in my previous reply.
Italians were temporary farm workers, so, the influence you imagine didn’t exist, they were not in the cities but, instead, isolated.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

If you mean we also had extreme racism in the USA, yes, you are correct. The USA was built, literally, on racism. Slaves built the White House and the Washington Monument.
But I see you have retreated from saying Italian immigration began with Peron, in 1946, to admitting that, as early as the 1890s, Italian immigration was a larger percentage of immigrants than any other source. Which is, of course, exactly what I was saying.

This odd idea that they were somehow "temporary" is funny- how, exactly, did "temporary" workers end up being, today, more than 50% of the population of the country?
In the entire history of immigration for the last two centuries, approximately 10% of all immigrants, to the USA and to South America, returned to their home countries, deciding they didnt like the new one. This is historically true, unless they were slaves, or there were horrible conditions at home- say, Stalin, or WW2. So, of course, a certain percentage of Italian immigrants to Argentina returned home, like the famous Mario Palanti.
But this is still true today- over 10% of Mexican immigrants to the USA retire back to Mexico, and similar things happen with many first generation immigrants to Argentina.

In the end though, you are still wrong that Italian immigration was not a very big factor in changing Argentina, starting in the 1880s.

And, to circle back- the Italian left wing labor movement, and the Semana Tragica, was a huge influence in creating the insider relationship between the sindicatos, the army, the church, and the oligarchs, the 4 legs of the Argentine economy and government for the last 80 years or so.
The Italians in 1919 were extreme leftists- hence the Semana Tragica, and the citywide Paro.
The powers that be- the Ricos, the Military- decided to violently put them down, and over time, negotiate with corrupt but manageable, more centrist Unions. That resulted in the oddball mix of Socialism and military dictatorship from the forties to the eighties that hugely impacted where we are today. Without the Italian anarchists, and the huge riots and strikes in 1919, things would be different. Hence, a Historic Event that Changed Argentina.

Besides the US racism, they were right regarding Italians because Mussolini’s plan was to create colonies in the US and Argentina and both countries reacted to that.
The big mistake in the statics you showed is the retuning % that fell drastically with Peron.

I do not retreated. They were men alone not immigrants who were working in farms isolated until they save enouught money and then they returned home in Italy. The amount of italians in CABA was insignificant. Spaniards and judes stayed mainly in the big cities.

I continue later.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

This odd idea that they were somehow "temporary" is funny- how, exactly, did "temporary" workers end up being, today, more than 50% of the population of the country?
In the entire history of immigration for the last two centuries, approximately 10% of all immigrants, to the USA and to South America, returned to their home countries, deciding they didnt like the new one. This is historically true, unless they were slaves, or there were horrible conditions at home- say, Stalin, or WW2. So, of course, a certain percentage of Italian immigrants to Argentina returned home, like the famous Mario Palanti.
But this is still true today- over 10% of Mexican immigrants to the USA retire back to Mexico, and similar things happen with many first generation immigrants to Argentina.

Remember we are not debating. I’ m teaching you.
During the Medieval Ages emigration was illegal because the servants of the glebe were not considerated persons, they were things alike houses or land (real estate), property of the Lord. When they emigrate they commit robbery of them selves.
Germany during the II Reich for example, allowed to emigrate only after the military service was done.
So, yes, they were considerated property of Italy while Argentina was struggling for “stealing” those immigrants.
If you read art. 31 of the peronist Bill of Rights, it was possible for naturalize after 2 years by the will of the foreigner or [by force] after 5 years. You find this rules in the Medieval rules of usucapio of serves (adquiere property irregulary by the pass of time and no complain of the former owner).
So, the point is that 90% of italians were going back to Italy until Peron got into power and then it fell until 35%. So, my initial assert was accurate and extremely technical while the paper you quote is a shame for the academic world I belong to.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Fascism, nazism, phalangism and peronism were only new names to label old ideas of the absolut power born of the capitulations to the barbarians who enslaved the people who surrendered (dediticios) who became serfs of the glebe.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

When I wrote serves I meant serfs.

 

[Ries]

You have not cited a single source that indicates 90% of italians returned to Italy. This is not borne out by ANY population or immigration figures I have seen.
You may be refering to golondrinos- Italian workers who went back and forth between Italy and Argentina every year- but that number peaked at about 30,000 per year in 1912 or so- a time when there were well over a million italian immigrants in Argentina.
"In Argentina the famous golondrinas (’swallows’) had traditionally fulfilled much of the demand for seasonal farm labor. These workers, who were primarily Italian, used cheap steerage-class steamship fares to travel back and forth between Itily and Argentina to work in the harvests of both countries, which took place at roughly opposite times of the year. At its height during the 1908-12 period, golondrina migration brought between 30,(XX) and 35,000 laborers to Argentina annually. Mark Jefferson*^ compared them with European Opera singers, who also habitually sojourned in Argentina during the Northern hemisphere summer. Some golondrinas, he found, had made the trip seventeen times or more. A diligent seasonal worker could easily take the respectable sum of 150 Argentine gold pesos back to Italy; some netted nearly double that amount^*." (Solberg 1987:95-96)

There is no record anywhere of millions of italians returning to Italy.
Italian immigrants came, and stayed, in Argentina every year thru 1930.
By the millions. As I stated before, a certain percentage of immigrants always return home- usually around 10%. the percentage of italians returning could be higher- please, cite figures.
But the fact that Argentina is currently about 65% of Italian heritage means that most italian immigrants stayed, and had families.

"As Germani (1970:299) demonstrates, from 1890 onwards, immigrants took up mainly non-agricultural occupations after arrival."
It was true that earlier in the 19th century, many italians were rural agricultural workers- but in the 20th century, Buenos Aires had a large italian immigrant population- Vasena, who was ITALIAN, had 2000 mostly italian employees at his foundry and blacksmith shop, where the strike and violence started the Semana Tragica. That was merely one of many factories and workshops where most of the urban, non-agricultural employees were italian immigrants who never returned to Italy in the first 20 years of the 20th century.

The entire european immigration in the Peron years, say, 47 to 57, was well under 1 million people, and the total number of Italian immigrants under Peron was around 380,000. Not nearly enough to make 50% of Argentina Italian.
"Between 1947 and 1957 about 840,000 Europeans came. 610,000 stayed permanently, and of them 388,000 were Italians. The highest immigration levels were recorded during the Peronist boom years of the late forties. Already by 1952, numbers were falling again and by 1960, and from then onwards, return migration outnumbered new immigration (Roncelli 1987:113-115, Nascimbene 1987:104)."

this is another easily findable paper online, which is copiously footnoted, and refers to many standard works on immigration, in both english and spanish.
http://etheses.lse.ac.uk/1287/1/U062673.pdf

Y

 

[Ries]

Here is a study that says around half- 50% of italian immigrants returned to Italy.
50% and 90% are very different numbers- sloppy "teaching" if you think 50 is the same as 90.

http://storiaefuturo.eu/a-comparati...historiography-on-return-migration-1880-1930/

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Here is a study that says around half- 50% of italian immigrants returned to Italy.
50% and 90% are very different numbers- sloppy "teaching" if you think 50 is the same as 90.

http://storiaefuturo.eu/a-comparati...historiography-on-return-migration-1880-1930/

Well, at least it quotes Maciel and mentioned superficially the statics of the immigration department.

As I told you before I do not debate with you and you confirmed my doubts about sharing with you the hard data from the jewels of my personal collection of very rare immigration and citizenship books. Keep googling...

Sloopy teaching..., right. Do not worry, it is my faulf in wasting my time with you.