HuffPo on CFK

Dipoots said:
I must be stupid tonight, I have no idea what the above statement means. The deficits were an effect of various actions, policies, govt, import, export etc... it is not a thing that consumes debt. Is this one of those obfuscation to bewilder without palpable fact-type, red herring type of comments...



This is where I think Argentina is blessed and cursed at the same time. Blessed that it has such a rich resource base at a time when commodity prices are high, cursed that such a resource base can support any type of government, competent or not, and prolong any malaise for a long time, as long as there is no external trigger (collapse in world economy and commodity prices)

I asked a Chilean friend of mine if there was corruption in Chile as bad as it is in Argentina. He said, "There is corruption in Chile but not nearly as bad. There aren't a lot of natural resources at the government's disposal in Chile so if they were this corrupt, Chile wouldn't even exist."

Its true the resources in Argentina can support any kind of government but that is where it gets really sad. Because it seems the only type of government they seem to support is an utterly corrupt one that is bent on stealing from the populace (the resources and the revenues are the people's not the government's).
 
bradlyhale said:
There are various factors (imbalances, lack of investment, etc) that led to the deficit, but the result in the long-term is the same, regardless of the factors that caused it to happen. It's a math equation. Most countries (the U.S. is a special case) cannot spend more (import) than they earn (export) without eventually maxing out their credit cards. In 2001, Argentina unilaterally declared bankruptcy. It wasn't pretty, but it's what saved the country.

If acquiring more debt to pay down debt (instead of investing in production) would have worked, why hasn't it worked in Europe? Why is the gap between total debt and GDP growing in countries like Italy, Portugal, Greece, and Spain? If trade balances are so irrelevant, why do essentially all of the major European countries with imbalances (more money going out than coming in) find themselves in a crisis, while Germany continues to do well? The last time Germany had a negative trade balance was in 1992, and it's barely noticeable on the histogram.

The conventional wisdom for much of the last 20-years or so has been to take on debt to make up for these imbalances, and hope for the best. Nestor Kirchner and Cristina Fernandez were correct in diagnosing this as the problem, and I will certainly give them credit for going against the tide. If a country with a ton of debt and obliterated industries due to unfettered free trade could "easily bounce back," let me know when that will happen in Europe under the current paradigm.

There are many different opinions or rather, beliefs on whether running long term trade deficits are good or bad for the economy. There are some economists who believe that running large trade deficits do not, in the long run, hurt the economy. There are others who believe that large trade deficits mean doom.

We can all keep going back and forth...blaming free trade or protectionism or trade deficits or surpluses and what have you. But the fact of the matter is that that is all an oversimplification. The southern European countries are not in a dump because of "unfettered free trade". That may be a factor playing a role in it but it is definitely not the underlying factor.

I mean, I get it, in politics, politicians have to level blame against the other guy and paint a certain picture about him like "he is a socialist devil trying to bring the new world order" or "he is a capitalist pig, only caring for rich and he will put y'all back in chains!!!!!" Let's leave that to politicians to kick dirt around. We don't have to do that.

Again, I will use the case of Greece because that is the worst case out there and is very recent and ongoing.

Why did the Greek crisis happen? Because of a whole lotta different problems. Like:

1) Government lying through their teeth about their numbers. (Argentina does that too.)

2) Tax evasaion. (Argentina does that too.)

3) Misuse of loans. Using them to pay for government salaries and increasing government jobs. It results in a decreased rate of unemployment making all the politicians happy and getting them reelected.(Argentina does that too.) In fact, Greece had so many government employees that they didn't even know the exact number of people employed by the government.

4) Bureaucracy. Yeah. It used to take 40+ licenses from different government offices to start ONE privately owned business. Not sure if that has changed or not. (We all know about the Argentine bureaucracy).

5) Government deficit. The government spending more than they made from taxes. Spending on social programs, government salaries, unneeded government employees, etc.

6) Lax budget controls. Last year the Argentine government spent over the budget without any questions asked. This year the government is projected to spend likewise. The next year, they are expected to spend even more. There are no real numbers, no checks and balances, nothing!

7) Corruption and the culture that breeds it! There is no question whatsoever that Argentina has the exact same culture. You have corruption in every country in the world but then there are special countries where corruption happens out in the open, yet goes unnoticed/unpunished.

There are many more reasons but its the last one I want to focus on. Corruption. As long as you have corruption at the levels of Argentina and Greece (Spain, Portugal, Italy are the same), you can not even begin to concieve a plan where these countries will do well economically over long periods of time. And this isn't about liberal/neo liberal economics vs Keynesian economics. Or Capitalism vs Socialism. You just can't have a system run properly if corruption exists to these monumental levels as it does in Argentina and Greece.

And I'm not talking about just the politicians. I am talking about the whole of society. No not every single person is corrupt. But most of the society is implicit in the way things go in these countries. When people shrug at the lowest level crimes like pickpocketing, it doesn't take long when they start to shrug at high level crimes like Presidents and Vice Presidents lying through their teeth and stealing money out in the open.

On the other hand, tax evasion, whether in a largely Capitalist society or a largely Socialist society, will result in the country being run into the ground. Especially in a more Socialist society where the people and the government demand several social programs that need to be funded through taxation.

Oh if someone is going to jump up and say, "yippy the Ks have targeted tax evasion." Then you must not be a very bright individual. What the Ks have managed to do with their policies is trap the middle class in this idiotic game of theirs. You know, the middle class that largely already pays their taxes through their pay checks. People that are poor don't pay any kind of taxes anyway and the people that are rich have ways around government controls. The only ones affected by these recent changes are the middle class.

So basically the Argentine government only added more jobs in the government (more government spending) to keep tabs on the middle class who largely already pays taxes. Oh wow, not wasting money at all! The Ks have definitely changed Argentina for the better. :rolleyes:

Now, there are countries where there is less corruption and things work the way they are supposed to, for the most part. I am referring, of course, to Scandinavian countries. Tax evasion in those countries wasn't a problem at all until the recent Arab immigration (not racism, just fact, look it up). Most Scandinavian citizens not only pay their taxes but they WANT to pay their fair share of taxes.

A friend of mine recently visited Denmark. He was surprised at how clean the streets were compared to Edinburgh (Scotland) and even Dubai (which they try to keep as clean as possible). And not only that, there were work out machines in public parks! Did you hear that? WORK OUT MACHINES! And no, no one stole them or tried to steal them. They weren't chained down either.

Of course these countries have extensive social programs where everyone takes care of everyone else through government programs. It is because the government places the tax income where it belongs (hint: not their own pockets). (Oh and I am not a Socialist, just giving an honest example).

Is that an indication that government controlled, top down economy like that is the only viable option? Is it proof that Socialism works and Capitalism doesn't? No its not. If the Scandinavian society decided that they wanted to take care of their own expenses in their own way, I can guarantee that apart from the Arabs there, the society would still take care of each other as they do and would still be as responsible as they are. The government can not and does not make people better. The government is usually a representation of the people. Sometimes a bad representation, but a representation nonetheless.

At the end of it all, it is not one economic system or another that results in economies not doing so swell. It is the government, and the people. It is the culture that is followed by these people.

Of course people are good are throwing blame around so when things go wrong, everyone is battle-ready to tell the other person that the system they believed might be better...failed them all!!
 
nicoenarg said:
There are many different opinions or rather, beliefs on whether running long term trade deficits are good or bad for the economy. There are some economists who believe that running large trade deficits do not, in the long run, hurt the economy. There are others who believe that large trade deficits mean doom.

We can all keep going back and forth...blaming free trade or protectionism or trade deficits or surpluses and what have you. But the fact of the matter is that that is all an oversimplification. The southern European countries are not in a dump because of "unfettered free trade". That may be a factor playing a role in it but it is definitely not the underlying factor.

I mean, I get it, in politics, politicians have to level blame against the other guy and paint a certain picture about him like "he is a socialist devil trying to bring the new world order" or "he is a capitalist pig, only caring for rich and he will put y'all back in chains!!!!!" Let's leave that to politicians to kick dirt around. We don't have to do that.

Again, I will use the case of Greece because that is the worst case out there and is very recent and ongoing.

Why did the Greek crisis happen? Because of a whole lotta different problems. Like:

1) Government lying through their teeth about their numbers. (Argentina does that too.)

2) Tax evasaion. (Argentina does that too.)

3) Misuse of loans. Using them to pay for government salaries and increasing government jobs. It results in a decreased rate of unemployment making all the politicians happy and getting them reelected.(Argentina does that too.) In fact, Greece had so many government employees that they didn't even know the exact number of people employed by the government.

4) Bureaucracy. Yeah. It used to take 40+ licenses from different government offices to start ONE privately owned business. Not sure if that has changed or not. (We all know about the Argentine bureaucracy).

5) Government deficit. The government spending more than they made from taxes. Spending on social programs, government salaries, unneeded government employees, etc.

6) Lax budget controls. Last year the Argentine government spent over the budget without any questions asked. This year the government is projected to spend likewise. The next year, they are expected to spend even more. There are no real numbers, no checks and balances, nothing!

7) Corruption and the culture that breeds it! There is no question whatsoever that Argentina has the exact same culture. You have corruption in every country in the world but then there are special countries where corruption happens out in the open, yet goes unnoticed/unpunished.

There are many more reasons but its the last one I want to focus on. Corruption. As long as you have corruption at the levels of Argentina and Greece (Spain, Portugal, Italy are the same), you can not even begin to concieve a plan where these countries will do well economically over long periods of time. And this isn't about liberal/neo liberal economics vs Keynesian economics. Or Capitalism vs Socialism. You just can't have a system run properly if corruption exists to these monumental levels as it does in Argentina and Greece.

And I'm not talking about just the politicians. I am talking about the whole of society. No not every single person is corrupt. But most of the society is implicit in the way things go in these countries. When people shrug at the lowest level crimes like pickpocketing, it doesn't take long when they start to shrug at high level crimes like Presidents and Vice Presidents lying through their teeth and stealing money out in the open.

On the other hand, tax evasion, whether in a largely Capitalist society or a largely Socialist society, will result in the country being run into the ground. Especially in a more Socialist society where the people and the government demand several social programs that need to be funded through taxation.

Oh if someone is going to jump up and say, "yippy the Ks have targeted tax evasion." Then you must not be a very bright individual. What the Ks have managed to do with their policies is trap the middle class in this idiotic game of theirs. You know, the middle class that largely already pays their taxes through their pay checks. People that are poor don't pay any kind of taxes anyway and the people that are rich have ways around government controls. The only ones affected by these recent changes are the middle class.

So basically the Argentine government only added more jobs in the government (more government spending) to keep tabs on the middle class who largely already pays taxes. Oh wow, not wasting money at all! The Ks have definitely changed Argentina for the better. :rolleyes:

Now, there are countries where there is less corruption and things work the way they are supposed to, for the most part. I am referring, of course, to Scandinavian countries. Tax evasion in those countries wasn't a problem at all until the recent Arab immigration (not racism, just fact, look it up). Most Scandinavian citizens not only pay their taxes but they WANT to pay their fair share of taxes.

A friend of mine recently visited Denmark. He was surprised at how clean the streets were compared to Edinburgh (Scotland) and even Dubai (which they try to keep as clean as possible). And not only that, there were work out machines in public parks! Did you hear that? WORK OUT MACHINES! And no, no one stole them or tried to steal them. They weren't chained down either.

Of course these countries have extensive social programs where everyone takes care of everyone else through government programs. It is because the government places the tax income where it belongs (hint: not their own pockets). (Oh and I am not a Socialist, just giving an honest example).

Is that an indication that government controlled, top down economy like that is the only viable option? Is it proof that Socialism works and Capitalism doesn't? No its not. If the Scandinavian society decided that they wanted to take care of their own expenses in their own way, I can guarantee that apart from the Arabs there, the society would still take care of each other as they do and would still be as responsible as they are. The government can not and does not make people better. The government is usually a representation of the people. Sometimes a bad representation, but a representation nonetheless.

At the end of it all, it is not one economic system or another that results in economies not doing so swell. It is the government, and the people. It is the culture that is followed by these people.

Of course people are good are throwing blame around so when things go wrong, everyone is battle-ready to tell the other person that the system they believed might be better...failed them all!!

CLAP!!! CLAP!!! CLAP!!! *standing*... post of the week!
 
nicoenarg said:
There are many different opinions or rather, beliefs on whether running long term trade deficits are good or bad for the economy. There are some economists who believe that running large trade deficits do not, in the long run, hurt the economy. There are others who believe that large trade deficits mean doom.

We can all keep going back and forth...blaming free trade or protectionism or trade deficits or surpluses and what have you. But the fact of the matter is that that is all an oversimplification. The southern European countries are not in a dump because of "unfettered free trade". That may be a factor playing a role in it but it is definitely not the underlying factor.

Trade balances and account deficits are the aggregates. There are obviously various underlying factors. Those could be poor budgeting, bureaucracy, and other factors. But still, more money is leaving Greece than coming in. This will be Greece's downfall, just as it was Argentina's. What exactly are you disputing?
 
bradlyhale said:
There are various factors (imbalances, lack of investment, etc) that led to the deficit, but the result in the long-term is the same, regardless of the factors that caused it to happen. It's a math equation. Most countries (the U.S. is a special case) cannot spend more (import) than they earn (export) without eventually maxing out their credit cards. In 2001, Argentina unilaterally declared bankruptcy. It wasn't pretty, but it's what saved the country.

If acquiring more debt to pay down debt (instead of investing in production) would have worked, why hasn't it worked in Europe? Why is the gap between total debt and GDP growing in countries like Italy, Portugal, Greece, and Spain? If trade balances are so irrelevant, why do essentially all of the major European countries with imbalances (more money going out than coming in) find themselves in a crisis, while Germany continues to do well? The last time Germany had a negative trade balance was in 1992, and it's barely noticeable on the histogram.

The conventional wisdom for much of the last 20-years or so has been to take on debt to make up for these imbalances, and hope for the best. Nestor Kirchner and Cristina Fernandez were correct in diagnosing this as the problem, and I will certainly give them credit for going against the tide. If a country with a ton of debt and obliterated industries due to unfettered free trade could "easily bounce back," let me know when that will happen in Europe under the current paradigm.

bradlyhale said:
Trade balances and account deficits are the aggregates. There are obviously various underlying factors. Those could be poor budgeting, bureaucracy, and other factors. But still, more money is leaving Greece than coming in. This will be Greece's downfall, just as it was Argentina's. What exactly are you disputing?

The above, in bold. Like I said before, any economic ill (in your words, obliterated industries) is not the result of one factor, as you seemed to put it--unfettered free trade.

And yes, I agree that it can be one or two things that prove to be the final straw. But it will happen over and over and over and over...again if the actual underlying reasons are not taken care of.

If you think the current Argentine administration is doing something right (trying to curb the outflow of capital) then that's your opinion.

In my opinion, the much better option would have been to get rid of the aspects of Argentine economy and system that encourage people to take their money out of Argentina. Things that make people not have any faith in the Argentine financial system have not changed. In fact the current climate fuels anti Argentine sentiment even further, when it comes to economics.
 
nicoenarg said:
The above, in bold. Like I said before, any economic ill (in your words, obliterated industries) is not the result of one factor, as you seemed to put it--unfettered free trade.

There are numerous factors that may affect the efficacy of national production (poor budgeting, poor investment, etc), but excessive imports and a lack of national production are the main (as in the aggregate) reasons why Greece, Spain, France, Italy, et al find themselves in the situation they are in today. That is my point.

What you're disputing--why trade is imbalanced--is up for debate. There will be numerous factors as to why, but they all lead back to two factors for every country: more imports than exports. After more than a decade of spending more abroad than they earn, the party is coming to an end for most of Europe, except those countries that didn't drink the unfettered free trade Kool-Aid.

I'm for freer trade. Countries can't spend (import) without limits. Wouldn't you agree?
 
bradlyhale said:
There are numerous factors that may affect the efficacy of national production (poor budgeting, poor investment, etc), but excessive imports and a lack of national production are the main (as in the aggregate) reasons why Greece, Spain, France, Italy, et al find themselves in the situation they are in today. That is my point.

What you're disputing--why trade is imbalanced--is up for debate. There will be numerous factors as to why, but they all lead back to two factors for every country: more imports than exports. After more than a decade of spending more abroad than they earn, the party is coming to an end for most of Europe, except those countries that didn't drink the unfettered free trade Kool-Aid.

I'm for freer trade. Countries can't spend (import) without limits. Wouldn't you agree?

No what I was disputing was whether it is bad for countries to have a trade deficit at all or whether it doesn't matter in the long run. Again, I didn't give any opinion on it since economists can't even agree on what is the correct course, economically for a country.

The following from you is merely speculation I'm afraid:

After more than a decade of spending more abroad than they earn, the party is coming to an end for most of Europe, except those countries that didn't drink the unfettered free trade Kool-Aid.

Again, it seems like you want to blame free trade for it all, speculating that the economic problems in Southern Europe are a direct result of, to use your words again, "unfettered free trade". Not saying that that might not have been a factor (I'm repeating myself), just that it is not conclusively proven to be THE underlying factor. If that isn't what you're saying, then I'm afraid I am not able to clearly understand your point.

Anyway, like I said, we can keep arguing over opinions and keep pointing fingers at each others' ideas but I see nothing coming out of it.

I'll just leave here with what I already said in my previous post:

There are many different opinions or rather, beliefs on whether running long term trade deficits are good or bad for the economy. There are some economists who believe that running large trade deficits do not, in the long run, hurt the economy. There are others who believe that large trade deficits mean doom.
 
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