Insane Landlords

[cbphoto]

Perry: "..Is this hard for you to understand Carver?"
So U were not trying to sound condescending.. as I wrote..maybe something was lost in translation.
And calling people "liars" that have a different "opinion/ take on reality" then you is not the type of writing that should be toned down on this forum.
You love to delete posts that are critical of your opinions
You deleted my prior post only to put it up again with the above response
Before you blocked me from posting for over 3 months for disagreeing with you..
Yes this does relate to this thread..
It is a basic break down in society as a whole.. break down in communications where one side is soooo secure with themselves.. that they need not be polite..and can delete/disregard anyone/anything that does not fit into their world.
I C you viewing/waiting for this lovely public response to you..
Let the public decide for once!

 

[perry]

Look , that non natives are gouged in argentina is a FACT. Im not saying Remax does it , But hosing a yanki pelotudo is sport here. I kow these fine mormon missionaries , , they tell me they are purposly overcharged EVERY time they buy groceries , even if the price is displayed.
You cant be so naiive to beleive that non natives dont get hosed.

Argentina is oportunistic to everyone and does not discrimate just to expats . I agree that one must be very cautious when purchasing big ticket items .

My point Fabe is that that Rental prices for furnished properties are the same for locals or expats alike . If you decide to pay more than the market value due to not checking prices beforehand that is the buyers fault .

Do you Fabe accept the first quote for an airline ticket and buy shoes from the first shop you enter?

 

[cbphoto]

It's not that simple. If you are a local or expat landlord for that matter... and know that the fair price for your rental unit is much less than what you are trying to charge an unknowing possible tenant.. you are a crook!! No 2 ways about it.
It's the attitude that if I can get one over on you.. that means I am just smarter/better at business dealings then you. You are lying to someone and yourself.

 

[YanquiGallego]

I beg your pardon, Perry, but I think you are a bit out of order.

I am not trying to mislead anyone. Even among locals, these furnished flats which tend to be rented for shorter periods of time, at US prices in US dollars, are generally referred to as ¨alquileres de extranjeros¨ by the very locals for a reason.

The reasons, again GENERALLY, because it is a foreigner who A) can and will afford to pay these US prices B) does not have any ties to Buenos Aires Capital in order to furnish a Garantia to do a rent in local prices C) Does not want to deal with the hassle of buying furniture or wants something short-term

I am not in real estate but have leased plenty of apartments worldwide, and one way that I personally view the renting market in BA would be the equivalent of doing a corporate rental in the US or Europe, where you are given a furnished apartment which costs significantly more than an unfurnished unit for the convenience that it is providing on a short term.

Perry is correct in saying that anybody can have a Garantia--Foreign or otherwise-- if you have a property in Argentina (many require that for Capital it be in Capital, which makes leasing in Capital even a problem for Argentines who are not from BA) it´s fair game and you are in the clear to rent at local prices and in local currency, wherever you are from.

 

[Crema Americana]

There might not be two different prices for foreigners and for locals, but the prices are definitely set for the tourist market. Locals for the most part do not rent temporary furnished apartments. Your regular immobiliara (the ones you see on the street) generally don't even deal with temporary furnished rentals (I found this out the hard way after visiting half a dozen in Palermo.) It's a completely separate market.

If I still lived in ciudad BA I would start a rental business. I would only represent foreign owners who speak English fluently and I would only rent to foreigners who speak English fluently.

Sounds like an interesting business venture! I have to say, I wouldn't mind getting into the renting business... mostly from my own recent frustrations trying to rent a temporary apartment.

One of the things about Argentina is that there is so much opportunity due to the poor quality of service and dishonesty. If one could start a business, work hard, do things right, and get a good reputation, you're well on your way... that is, until the government comes along!

 

[perry]

I beg your pardon, Perry, but I think you are a bit out of order.

I am not trying to mislead anyone. Even among locals, these furnished flats which tend to be rented for shorter periods of time, at US prices in US dollars, are generally referred to as ¨alquileres de extranjeros¨ by the very locals for a reason.

The reasons, again GENERALLY, because it is a foreigner who A) can and will afford to pay these US prices B) does not have any ties to Buenos Aires Capital in order to furnish a Garantia to do a rent in local prices C) Does not want to deal with the hassle of buying furniture or wants something short-term

I am not in real estate but have leased plenty of apartments worldwide, and one way that I personally view the renting market in BA would be the equivalent of doing a corporate rental in the US or Europe, where you are given a furnished apartment which costs significantly more than an unfurnished unit for the convenience that it is providing on a short term.

Perry is correct in saying that anybody can have a Garantia--Foreign or otherwise-- if you have a property in Argentina (many require that for Capital it be in Capital, which makes leasing in Capital even a problem for Argentines who are not from BA) it´s fair game and you are in the clear to rent at local prices and in local currency, wherever you are from.

Thank you for your post Yanqui Gallego and your clarifications . In regards to the point of no Argentinians renting furnished properties I have not found this the case and have rented to many local people .

Its important to clear up here the misconceptiones that furnished properties are three times dearer than local properties as in many cases renting a furnished property is much cheaper for foreigners and locals alike if you just realise the huge cost of furnishings alone and skyrocketing expenses ( gone up 300% ) and cleaners that are provided by many rental agencies.
Paying US $ 50 a day for the luxury of having a beautiful property in Recoleta or Palermo is a downright bargain . A simple Hotel room of 26 metres costs US$ 100 a night in the same neighbourhoods . Are they also taking advantage of foreigners?

Furnished apartments in Buenos Aires if choosen carefully are still a bargain and there many great places for less than US $ 1500 a month . There are good property and bad property owners . Not all are the same and many bad property owners are not all Argentinian with a incredible amount of rental properties owned by foreigners as well!!

 

[YanquiGallego]

You're welcome.
I wasn't trying to dog on anybody´s business, I myself have leased both short term furnished in USD and dirt cheap unfurnished in Argentine pesos (with a garantia), and I do believe as you say, that short-term rentals should be seen as precisely that, short-term, a convenience, and a luxury, like in any other market, they do have a niche and serve a great purpose, it is indeed much cheaper and more comfortable for someone who is staying a short period of time to pay 7000 pesos ($1650 USD) per month for a 1 bedroom, than $100 USD/night (minimum) at a BA hotel. I dont doubt that you have had some locals rent short-term places for one reason or another, but most of the ones I know barely make 7000 pesos a month salaries, or wouldnt pay these prices ¨ni en pedo¨ (I know because my own friends have expressed this to me verbatum and look at me like I have 2 heads for paying these prices)

Furniture is expensive, but its not THAT expensive, and its not like most of these furnished flats come with Louis XVI stuff, and the same goes for weekly cleaning ladies who earn in pesos.

Again, I am not dogging on anybody,as I would be a hypocrite to critique, as
I personally currently sub-let from an Argentina friend in USD at a price I openly know I am getting ripped off on because I know how much she pays for the flat, we even joke about it, however she knows me and does not charge me a deposit, I can come and go (meaning leave the flat and not pay for a month or so while I am in the States or Spain) as I please, so to me that ¨convenience¨ is worth the blatant rip off and I actually almost prefer over-paying a bit monthly than dealing with a crook landlord who will keep my deposit or as in the case of what is happening to the OP, get hysterical over everyday wear and tear.

 

[perry]

You're welcome.
I wasn't trying to dog on anybody´s business, I myself have leased both short term furnished in USD and dirt cheap unfurnished in Argentine pesos (with a garantia), and I do believe as you say, that short-term rentals should be seen as precisely that, short-term, a convenience, and a luxury, like in any other market, they do have a niche and serve a great purpose, it is indeed much cheaper and more comfortable for someone who is staying a short period of time to pay 7000 pesos ($1650 USD) per month for a 1 bedroom, than $100 USD/night (minimum) at a BA hotel. I dont doubt that you have had some locals rent short-term places for one reason or another, but most of the ones I know barely make 7000 pesos a month salaries, or wouldnt pay these prices ¨ni en pedo¨ (I know because my own friends have expressed this to me verbatum and look at me like I have 2 heads for paying these prices)

Furniture is expensive, but its not THAT expensive, and its not like most of these furnished flats come with Louis XVI stuff, and the same goes for weekly cleaning ladies who earn in pesos.

Again, I am not dogging on anybody,as I would be a hypocrite to critique, as
I personally currently sub-let from an Argentina friend in USD at a price I openly know I am getting ripped off on because I know how much she pays for the flat, we even joke about it, however she knows me and does not charge me a deposit, I can come and go (meaning leave the flat and not pay for a month or so while I am in the States or Spain) as I please, so to me that ¨convenience¨ is worth the blatant rip off and I actually almost prefer over-paying a bit monthly than dealing with a crook landlord who will keep my deposit or as in the case of what is happening to the OP, get hysterical over everyday wear and tear.

Yanqui there are many Argentinians that are very wealthy and pay top dollar for rentals . Have you see the prices of furnished houses in Carilo and Punta Del Este in temporada Alta . Prices of US $ 20,000 per month are common and most of the renters are Argentinians not foreigners .

To my suprise every expensive property that I sold was also to locals and not expats . The Argentinian elite are cash rich and have their money here .

Yanqui you will also find that the most expensive rentals are from Expat companies as well . Apartments BA at one time was owned by Micheal Koh and 90 % of the properties were his . His rentals were very expensive but he did very well due to his clever marketing . Its ironic but when expats charge a much higher price to expats its called business but when a Argentinian charges higher prices its called oportunism and theft . There must be some balance here as many locals feel slighted by being put into one basket.

We have to be careful not to pidgeonhole people too much with these threads . Buenos Aires is the city with most rental properties ( furnished) in the world .There are some nightmare properties out there for sure but there are also some incredible properties owned by fair Argentinians . Just take your time and do not rush into any deals until you are 100% sure

 

[TheBlackHand]

The truth of the matter is, without a short term fully furnished and serviced apartment rental market, short term foreigners would either have to find a way to get a guarantee, sign a two year contract, fully furnish their own apartment, get all utilities activated in their own name and pay for them themselves and also hire their own cleaning staff or rent a hotel room for $ 100+ a night. Taking into account all the work and time saved, work and time that a property owner himself takes on, it is ridiculous to say or even think that the short term rental market was created to gouge the tourist. That is absurd.

There are much better investment opportunities out there than renting to ungrateful and unreliable tourists. Just break down the actual facts of the investment and look at the margins and you will understand how silly these uneducated rants sound to people who have acutally invested in rental property in argentina

Initial apartment investment

Average 50 sq meter apartment in Palermo $ 125.000 USD
Average closing costs 5%
Average furnishing costs $ 10.000 USD
Total Initial investment $ 145.000 USD

Average short term rental price for Apartment of this size $ 1200 - $ 1500 USD

Average Overhead for apartment of this size
-------------------
Average Monthly utilities $ 600 Pesos ( goes up every year )
Average Bi Monthly ABL $ 200 Pesos ( soon to be monthly )
Average Monthly cleaning Costs $ 500 Pesos ( goes up every year )
Average Monthly Newer building expenses $ 600 Pesos ( goes up every year )
Average Monthly Rental Agent Fee 20% or in this case $ 240 - 300 USD
Monthly Miscellaneous Maintenance $ 50 - $ 200 Pesos
Average Monthly Property management fees $ 100 usd
-------------------
Net Profit for owner after all costs and fees $ 500 - 700 USD a month or just about a 5% yearly return on their investment.

Some owners can do a little better and get about 8%. And that is before factoring in Property taxes and property insurance. Not to mention the fact that if you rent short term you run the risk of only having 50% yearly occupancy, which would see your overall ROI diminished.

Now contrast this with the long term rental option.

Same initial investment minus the cost of furnishing the property.

Average long term monthly rental price for a rental of this size $ 2000 Pesos

The owner does not pay ABL, Utilities, Expenses, Cleaning or maintenance fees. The owner also doesn't pay the rental agent fee or a property management fee.

The tenant furnishes a guarantee that guarantees the rental period and property. The tenant pays first and last months rent plus a 1 month security deposit. The tenant pays for the rental agent fee and buys his own furniture, contracts all his own utilities, pays all the bills including ABL and building expenses.

The owner walks away with about $ 450 USD, cash in hand every month and doesn't have to worry about the apartment for another two years.

So to any uneducated turd who actually thinks it's good business to rent to short term tourists or undocumented foreigners instead of legal citizens or residents with guarantees, all I have to say is, HAHAHAHA.

If you are in the ultra luxury market where you are renting mini mansions for $ 1000 + usd per night, then maybe yes, the margins are better, but even then the work involved wouldn't justify the investment for me. But as far as the average 1-2 bedroom apartment, it's a myth to think owners are making a killing. It's actually an outright bold faced LIE.

 

[perry]

The truth of the matter is, without a short term fully furnished and serviced apartment rental market, short term foreigners would either have to find a way to get a guarantee, sign a two year contract, fully furnish their own apartment, get all utilities activated in their own name and pay for them themselves and also hire their own cleaning staff or rent a hotel room for $ 100+ a night. Taking into account all the work and time saved, work and time that a property owner himself takes on, it is ridiculous to say or even think that the short term rental market was created to gouge the tourist. That is absurd.

There are much better investment opportunities out there than renting to ungrateful and unreliable tourists. Just break down the actual facts of the investment and look at the margins and you will understand how silly these uneducated rants sound to people who have acutally invested in rental property in argentina

Initial apartment investment

Average 50 sq meter apartment in Palermo $ 125.000 USD
Average closing costs 5%
Average furnishing costs $ 10.000 USD
Total Initial investment $ 145.000 USD

Average short term rental price for Apartment of this size $ 1200 - $ 1500 USD

Average Overhead for apartment of this size
-------------------
Average Monthly utilities $ 600 Pesos ( goes up every year )
Average Bi Monthly ABL $ 200 Pesos ( soon to be monthly )
Average Monthly cleaning Costs $ 500 Pesos ( goes up every year )
Average Monthly Newer building expenses $ 600 Pesos ( goes up every year )
Average Monthly Rental Agent Fee 20% or in this case $ 240 - 300 USD
Monthly Miscellaneous Maintenance $ 50 - $ 200 Pesos
Average Monthly Property management fees $ 100 usd
-------------------
Net Profit for owner after all costs and fees $ 500 - 700 USD a month or just about a 5% yearly return on their investment.

Some owners can do a little better and get about 8%. And that is before factoring in Property taxes and property insurance. Not to mention the fact that if you rent short term you run the risk of only having 50% yearly occupancy, which would see your overall ROI diminished.

Now contrast this with the long term rental option.

Same initial investment minus the cost of furnishing the property.

Average long term monthly rental price for a rental of this size $ 2000 Pesos

The owner does not pay ABL, Utilities, Expenses, Cleaning or maintenance fees. The owner also doesn't pay the rental agent fee or a property management fee.

The tenant furnishes a guarantee that guarantees the rental period and property. The tenant pays first and last months rent plus a 1 month security deposit. The tenant pays for the rental agent fee and buys his own furniture, contracts all his own utilities, pays all the bills including ABL and building expenses.

The owner walks away with about $ 450 USD, cash in hand every month and doesn't have to worry about the apartment for another two years.

So to any uneducated turd who actually thinks it's good business to rent to short term tourists or undocumented foreigners instead of legal citizens or residents with guarantees, all I have to say is, HAHAHAHA.

If you are in the ultra luxury market where you are renting mini mansions for $ 1000 + usd per night, then maybe yes, the margins are better, but even then the work involved wouldn't justify the investment for me. But as far as the average 1-2 bedroom apartment, it's a myth to think owners are making a killing. It's actually an outright bold faced LIE.

What a succinct post Blackhand and is the damn truth . The same goes for realtors as well who have to put in 100 hour week minimum work to achieve any decent income . If people knew the costs of this business they would understand that our commission is well deserved

Most independent realtors must outlay US $ 4000 per month minimum to keep their listings active and work those listings. On average a property needs to be shown 30 times to be shown and a realtor has to take at least 100 phone calls on that property to create those appointments .
If you do not sell or rent that listing you are normally out of pocket on average US $ 2000 per property . Over a year you have to sell 2 properties a month minimum to cover your costs and make a normal income of US $ 3000 per month profit . This is for 100 hour weeks .
We get paid similar to a taxi driver who owns his own taxi .