Is Argentina Still a Good Deal?

[dlish]

Anecdotely inflation has been felt the most on the more discretionary of consumer spending, and most argentinians in formal employment have inflation linked salaries, so (again purely anecdotely) the majority of the lower middle class and above are not seeing too much difference versus say 6 months ago.

Also anecdotely - my middle class local friends are dying right now and massively feeling this crunch. Their salaries have definitely not gone up anything close to the current inflation. Plenty of things like food and gas are 2.5x what they were four months ago; salaries have not increased by 250%, not for my friends anyway, maybe by 50%

 

[oddDistribution]

When I was 47, I was in exactly your situation (and therefore I didn't have a reason to be more cautious than someone who had a pension or social security and was just deciding where to live). I quit my high paying job, sold my house and moved here, and never looked back.

I haven't regretted it.

There's nothing wrong with being cautious, but you may find yourself at 65, or older, still in the same place, wondering what might have been.

That's encouraging to hear that you were in the same spot I'm in right now and things worked out for you.

Agreed regarding regarding the risk of being too cautious and missing out. Working until I'm 65 is out of the question though I can tell you that for sure.

 

[oddDistribution]

it's very hard to advise you when we don't know your interests, the lifestyle you are used to, your level of tolerance for the inefficiency and inconvenience you will have to deal with in Argentina (and quite a few other countries) and just how much money you will be living on. I'd advise against buying when you have no idea whether you'll like it. I forget if you said you speak Spanish. If not, you're going to be isolated and dependent on others to do things for you (that would be true in other countries but in Euope you'll find more English speakers). Also take into consideration that Argentina is under a lot of stress, uncertainty with a lot of unhappy people nowadays. If I were you I'd hang onto my high paying job for another year and see how things are going in Argentina and the world. Can't you take a few weeks here and there to visit?

I tried to articulate the lifestyle I had in mind in this post: https://baexpats.org/threads/how-much-would-this-lifestyle-cost.46842/. I'm not sure if I did a good job or not though.

I'm planning to learn Spanish if/when I move there. I think I can get around with Google translate pretty well until then. I would start learning now, but I might live in Brazil instead.

The amount of money I'm thinking about is around 3-4k USD per month depending on how long I work. That amount has to cover everything including rent, travel back to the US once a year, medical, any visa stuff, etc. Closer to 3k would be better, but I want to be realistic.

I get about that much vacation in a year total. So, I can and have been there, but I can't exactly go there regularly.

 

[oddDistribution]

Also anecdotely - my middle class local friends are dying right now and massively feeling this crunch. Their salaries have definitely not gone up anything close to the current inflation. Plenty of things like food and gas are 2.5x what they were four months ago; salaries have not increased by 250%, not for my friends anyway, maybe by 50%

You would think this would stop inflation from advancing at the rate it is, but I guess not.

 

[patho]

I love São Paulo! What are the costs like living there compared to BA? Is it actually much cheaper now with the increases in Argentina?

I was curious for reading more opinions on this one, but decided to chime in as a Sao Paulo fan. Online pages comparing the cost of living give a good idea about this, Buenos Aires seems still much cheaper. Supermarket prices in Argentina increased a lot for sure, but definitely not more expensive than Sao Paulo. Rent is also cheaper.

But of course, all depends on your lifestyle and the way you are accustomed to live in a city.

There is the difference of the way of life and living standards... Buenos Aires is a much safer and very walkable city, easily accessible by public transport with a rich cultural scene. Having an evening stroll by Puerto Madero is free. In Sao Paulo, Uber becomes almost a must pretty frequently, not as walkable as BA, safety and social issues even if there are better regions, and so on. Many people choose to spend time behind prison-like bubbles so this way of living also adds to your monthly expenses. These are the kinds of things that are difficult to see via looking at prices and average costs.

Overall, I consider Buenos Aires much better for the value.

 

[oddDistribution]

I was curious for reading more opinions on this one, but decided to chime in as a Sao Paulo fan. Online pages comparing the cost of living give a good idea about this, Buenos Aires seems still much cheaper. Supermarket prices in Argentina increased a lot for sure, but definitely not more expensive than Sao Paulo. Rent is also cheaper.

But of course, all depends on your lifestyle and the way you are accustomed to live in a city.

There is the difference of the way of life and living standards... Buenos Aires is a much safer and very walkable city, easily accessible by public transport with a rich cultural scene. Having an evening stroll by Puerto Madero is free. In Sao Paulo, Uber becomes almost a must pretty frequently, not as walkable as BA, safety and social issues even if there are better regions, and so on. Many people choose to spend time behind prison-like bubbles so this way of living also adds to your monthly expenses. These are the kinds of things that are difficult to see via looking at prices and average costs.

Overall, I consider Buenos Aires much better for the value.

Interesting. I would have guessed that they were pretty close to each other in cost now after the recent increases.

By online pages do you mean like numbeo? I don't think that site is up to date given how recently things have changed.

Agreed in regard to safety.

 

[Reply Guy]

I have owned my apartment here for 15 years, so I am totally out of the loop about rent. But everything else is still much cheaper than NW Washington State, where I live in the USA. my utilities and "taxes" here are much much less. (ABL is not really a property tax, its the fee for garbage, street cleaning, and sewage) the amounts you would pay for sewage and garbage pickup where I live are more than my entire ABL bill.
I find almost everything I buy in Argentina is cheaper than in WA- cleaning supplies, groceries, lunch, dry cleaning, office supplies, books, concert tickets, clothing, bus fare, tools, sewing thread, you name it. BUT- I buy industria argentina whenever possible. If your desires are name brand multinational products, like Nike or Dior or Izod or Patagonia, those things are imported, and they are much more expensive, usually more than in the USA.
Shop local, live like locals, and things are pretty reasonable.
If I go to Target, in the USA, and buy Windex its 4.00 USD. If I go around the corner to the guy who refills my bottle with generic window cleaner, here, its something like 1200 pesos.
You have to learn to shop here, you have to take more time to go to specialist vendors, and you find usually higher quality, lower prices, than the mass market chinese stuff at big box stores in the USA.
Depends on your lifestyle, of course. You could be buying 40 dollar bottles of wine every night, although my guess is those would be 80 dollar bottles in the states.

Most things in Argentina are significantly cheaper than the US in USD terms, but you can buy cheap generic window cleaner in the US too.

 

[patho]

Interesting. I would have guessed that they were pretty close to each other in cost now after the recent increases.

By online pages do you mean like numbeo? I don't think that site is up to date given how recently things have changed.

Agreed in regard to safety.

Yeah I meant sites like numbeo.

Sure, I don't think it would be wrong to say "pretty close to each other in cost now", BA used to be ridiculously cheap, but considering how expensive Sao Paulo grocery stores has always been (one of the highest in Brazil I guess), Buenos Aires still feels okay to me in comparison while shopping around. As others said though, the future is not very clear with the direction of dollar blue and never ending price increases pesos.

If you are seriously interested in Brazil as an alternative, checking more affordable cities would not be a bad idea.

 

[dlish]

You would think this would stop inflation from advancing at the rate it is, but I guess not.

I have a few local friends who own businesses, and from my conversations (and of course this is anecdotal), small and medium size business owners here think in radically different terms to how we are used to in the USA and elsewhere.

In the USA, business is all about the long term planning and long game. You form a business plan: you know which year and which month you'll hit break even on your initial investment, and when you will expand to new stores. And when the market goes south, businesses introduce discounts to get more people in the door, hoping to create more repeat customers; they up their social media game; they do anything they can to get more feet through the door.

But here, where laws change from extreme to extreme overnight, coupled with a volatile currency, long term planning makes no sense at all. It's all about the short term planning. Business owners think in terms of: "I need to profit $x a month and earn it at all costs." That's the only thing they care about.

So when times get tough and less customers are buying, they increase prices like crazy. They don't care if they lose more customers. The thinking is: if I lose half my customers but still get the other half to buy at this price, I'll earn my $x. As long as I hit my $x a month, nothing else matters. My friends say that to me point blank: "I don't care if I lose half my customers". It blows my mind, but that's the way here.

So prices going up doesn't mean things are going great and there's more cash going around; on the contrary.

 

[Rich One]

I have a few local friends who own businesses, and from my conversations (and of course this is anecdotal), small and medium size business owners here think in radically different terms to how we are used to in the USA and elsewhere.

In the USA, business is all about the long term planning and long game. You form a business plan: you know which year and which month you'll hit break even on your initial investment, and when you will expand to new stores. And when the market goes south, businesses introduce discounts to get more people in the door, hoping to create more repeat customers; they up their social media game; they do anything they can to get more feet through the door.

But here, where laws change from extreme to extreme overnight, coupled with a volatile currency, long term planning makes no sense at all. It's all about the short term planning. Business owners think in terms of: "I need to profit $x a month and earn it at all costs." That's the only thing they care about.

So when times get tough and less customers are buying, they increase prices like crazy. They don't care if they lose more customers. The thinking is: if I lose half my customers but still get the other half to buy at this price, I'll earn my $x. As long as I hit my $x a month, nothing else matters. My friends say that to me point blank: "I don't care if I lose half my customers". It blows my mind, but that's the way here.

So prices going up doesn't mean things are going great and there's more cash going around; on the contrary.

Excellent analysis . The policy here is " If sales go down raise the prices to keep your dollar sales volume up.."