Is it all down to lack of respect???

[PhilipDT]

People, you are a bit off about employment, which isn't bad for itself if you are expats, but its kind of alarming coming from people that managed a biz here.

"Relacion de dependencia" (full time employees) dont have a contract. They are hired.
Contracts are usually reserved for providers, not employees.

If anyone is on "relación de dependencia", they should give 2 weeks notice before leaving. If they don't , its discounted from their salary as if they were absent. That's it. Not illegal. Its up to the worker to actually give the notice, and it will usually depend on the new job and how well the employee was treated and his/her relationship with the employer.

I find it very very difficult to believe that full time employees don't have any sort of contract. How else do they ensure that the get paid?

 

[citygirl]

Guillo - sigh.. we've been down this road before. I'm aware of what it takes to run a business in Argentina. I had no idea what the poster was writing about since the sentence structure was not exactly clear.

Just to clarify when you're talking about contracts, I'm guessing you you are thinking/talking about SOWs and MSAs, etc. However an employment agreement is what we're talking about here. And yes, direct employees sign this. For instance, my employees in Argentina sign a legal offer letter which outlines title, start date, salary, benefits, etc. Included in this is the clause which states that the letter functions as a sole and complete agreement between employee and employer. That is what I'm referring to.

Any company that hires employees in blanco should put this in a legal offer letter. It's protection for all parties.

 

[starlucia]

Why shouldn´t education have more in common with business? Most jobs that I have had in the U.S. are ¨at will¨. This means that I can leave whenever and I can be fired whenever. In the U.S. we often protect teachers from being fired. We have a fear that this would cause problems for the children or for continuity. I think these fears are somewhat unfounded. I think that education should be a competitive field too. Teachers that are good should be able to get better opportunities. Why should they feel they have to suck it up and take lower pay if they have a better opportunity? Likely the opportunity will not wait for them. I don´t think we should be afraid to fire teachers mid-year either if they aren´t doing the job well. The interview process for teaching jobs perhaps would be longer if this was the case. Similar to any job I do believe in giving at least a 2-week notice. Perhaps the teacher gave notice to the school and the school did not notify parents?

Oh, my god. Teaching is NOT a business, and the idea that it should be turned into some individualistic rat race is insane. Salaries are paid for by property tax dollars, so you're only screwing the poor kids, yet again (since the poorest school districts would lose their most talented teachers to the wealthier ones who can pay more.) Besides, one hopes that if a person went into the field of elementary education, he or she did so because s/he cared about kids, not climbing the ladder as fast as possible. Teachers are a MAJOR role model for kids, especially those who come from crap homes and have no other adult figures. Anyone who would just vanish from their lives one day, with no explanation, probably shouldn't go into the field in the first place.

 

[jayjane]

Oh, my god. Teaching is NOT a business

Agreed that it is not a business. Education would do well especially in the U.S. though to start adopting some business trends. For example, tenure should be more merit based. Of course education is never going to be ran completely like business, although there are more and more for-profit institutions now. I have worked for one and have seen the advantages and disadvantages of both for-profit and public education.

We are falling seriously behind in education in the U.S. The intentions of why a person goes into education may be alturistic but that doesn´t mean the person is good at teaching. Many good teachers get fed up with the field and leave because they are not getting opportunities to grow in their careers. Who doesn´t want to grow in their field and be compensated on merit? Just because teachers often have big hearts doesn´t mean they shouldn´t get to progress too. What we should really be concerned about is if the teacher is effective. I think there are a lot of teachers myself included that would choose to stay in lower-income districts because of things other than pay too.

Denying that teachers have the right to seek better employment is something crazy to me. It doesn´t mean that the person doesn´t take their position seriously. It can mean the opposite. Unfortunately, the way the whole system is set up is unfair in the U.S. and in many countries. It is true that poorer districts have less resources. And believe it or not, it is also true that with or without adopting more business-like practices a high percentage of good teachers will leave poor districts anyways.

If we demand more professionalism in the field, it will increase the level of expectation for everyone else too. At this point in the game it is about time to do something new.

 

[Saturnine]

I think it's the first time anyone has ever used that expression about me.

My philosophy is 'treat me well or leave me alone, and you can behave as you please, as long as you don't harm others. Sh*t on me or attack someone who is defenseless, and I'll kick you, even if you are lying down'.

Not exactly gentle, what?

Nice turn of the good old Kantian ethics, St. John
"Nor harming others" may be the catch here, as it seems a rather huge territory.

I've just read the whole thread and some reactions are incredible. It's not only Latinos that overheat, is it?
Fifs2 is right, the woman should not have left without a notice. Legally, that's debatable, morally, not so much so. I know "duty," "vocation," "ethics" are not good substitutes for the daily bread of many, but my understanding is the OP wasn't complaining about the teacher's take on her own pursuit of happiness, but about her leaving without following the most basic rules.
And it's not about freedom, since she could have left anyway. After working through her notice period!
It's about opportunism, more likely. Which, by the way, I've seen all over the world. And that's where I disagree with you, Fifs2. While you're right about getting upset over that teacher, I don't see why you're pinning it down to Argentine ethics. Your transition from the particular to the general in this case just doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't think: "Oh, she botched it, and that's what's wrong with this country." There's definitely something wrong with that reasoning

 

[jayjane]

What I still wonder is if this woman did give the school notice and the school failed to inform the parents or, maybe even asked that she did not say anything until they had found a replacement. It sounds like she is someone that would take her career seriously with the types of qualifications you mentioned. It is hard to imagine someone giving only a day of notice in this situation.

 

[francal]

I would like to point out that, behind-the-scenes, some teachers in private schools are mistreated by their employers and as such try to leave ASAP for their own good. For instance, last year in my former school, the headmistress went into the 11th grade class and started insulting the Economics teacher for arriving 5 minutes late - in front of the whole class (by the way, she had been late because she had had to take her daughter to the hospital). The teacher in question was reduced to tears and humiliated - and we are talking about a school with tuition fees of ARS 3100 per MONTH. While I believe teachers in my school were very well paid, several of them started leaving in these years as the authorities' abuse started creating tense working conditions. It might just be that the teacher in question had a "behind-the-scenes" conflict with the school and as such chose to leave - and the school gave the excuse of "a better payment" or whatever. While it is true that teacher commits to teach her class, in some cases the psychological damage caused by stressful working conditions someone pointed out - which might be terrible even in the most expensive private schools, not just in public ones - might justify the teacher's decision of leaving.

 

[perry]

From my experience this situation does not sound right and especially in light of the years that she has been working as a teacher .
There are many commendable woman in Buenos Aires who are amongst the most bright and dedicated workers in the world. For this reason alone I bet there is more behind this story that meets the eye.

 

[theargie]

1) in argentina (as in many countries) employees dont have contracts. if you have a contract then you're not an employee.
2) if your employer tells you that you need to give notice but you don't...that's it, you left, you already have a new job.




that makes so little sense compared to what we're talking about that i'm not even gonna try to explain while your logics are so flawed


People, A TEACHER IS NOT A SLAVE. tbere's a thing called FREEDOM and it makes you able to leave from wherever the hell you want. she did NOT HURT ANYONE, god!!! the kids will recover in a heartbeat and they will have ANOTHER teacher!

if you want a slave you're in the wrong decade.

First of all I want to tell you that I am Argentine, so what I am going to say does not have anything to do with nationality but with the education I received from my parents, friends and people I consider role models.

1) In Argentina, employees DO HAVE CONTRACTS, at any decent company you are about to join, they make you sign a contract that stipulates your salary, a description of your duties, you also sign something preventing future conflicts of interest, etc etc etc... Of course, if you are paid "under the table" that does not apply, but my point is that what you say is a lie, or at least not the truth, you can't just easily say "in argentina you dont sign contracts..."

2) Right, you don't have to.. but if you dont give the 30 day notice you will show just the disgusting class of person you are.

And you know what?? it's really interesting to see that normally the people that don't give a s#&t about being loyal to their employers are the ones that demand the most from them and then just leave without notice whenever something better appears.

3) We are not talking about being a slave. We are talking about ETHICS. And that's sadly something that 80% of the Argentinos still have to learn.
Sometimes Ethics will prevent you from making a certain profit or taking some advantage of a situation, but in the end you will be a respected person and that will open you many doors in the future. But I guess is something too complicated to understand, isn't it??

Allrigt I'm off! Cheers!

 

[John.St]

1) in argentina (as in many countries) employees dont have contracts. if you have a contract then you're not an employee.
2) if your employer tells you that you need to give notice but you don't...that's it, you left, you already have a new job.

Have you already forgotten that you wrote:

every company in the world would fire someone without a two weeks notice if they needed to.

As I explained, not every company in the world, same as not every employee treats employers and (in this case) her/his pupils without consideration.

And I did not write the following:

I hope the person performing your open heart surgery doesn't get invited out to a nice dinner during your operation. Karma's a bitch like that.

so this a pile of trash:

that makes so little sense compared to what we're talking about that i'm not even gonna try to explain while your logics are so flawed

Why are you so angry and devoid of compassion for other's problems?