July 10Th Pope Visits Paraguay

[sleslie23]

Could the Pope in his visit offer council on how to resolve the Stenoblauch Feud?

As our previous research confirms, as symbiotes, you can't have the Ste without the noblauch. The feud is what keeps each organism alive. Remove the feud and the poor creatures would wither and die.

 

[Matiasba]

Saying it doesn't make it so, Matias.

I would provide you with references to disprove your statement, but it wouldn't do any good. You don't care about facts. Most demagogues don't.

facts? you talk about facts? the NUMBERS clearly support what I am saying!

 

[sleslie23]

facts? you talk about facts? the NUMBERS clearly support what I am saying!

Not sure which is worse. The inherent racism/classism in your arrogance. Or your inability to come to terms with the realities of 2015.

Go ahead and send us those number you claim to have. I'm sure, as usual, the are from an "objective" and "reliable" source.

 

[Matiasba]

Not sure which is worse. The inherent racism/classism in your arrogance. Or your inability to come to terms with the realities of 2015.

Go ahead and send us those number you claim to have. I'm sure, as usual, the are from an "objective" and "reliable" source.

Racism? before you accuse, please show me where.
About the numbers, I will have to search them. But hey, go on, continue spreading your idea that paraguayans are no longer coming to live, work and send money back to Paraguay. Not only this year, but every year in the last years, every month, every second, immigration from Paraguay has been growing and growing and growing. I even remember Lanatas programs about this among other right wing television showmen talking of closing the borders.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Racism? before you accuse, please show me where.
About the numbers, I will have to search them. But hey, go on, continue spreading your idea that paraguayans are no longer coming to live, work and send money back to Paraguay. Not only this year, but every year in the last years, every month, every second, immigration from Paraguay has been growing and growing and growing. I even remember Lanatas programs about this among other right wing television showmen talking of closing the borders.

Doesn't INDEC provide transparent, easily accessible data on topics such as this?

 

[sleslie23]

Racism? before you accuse, please show me where.
About the numbers, I will have to search them. But hey, go on, continue spreading your idea that paraguayans are no longer coming to live, work and send money back to Paraguay. Not only this year, but every year in the last years, every month, every second, immigration from Paraguay has been growing and growing and growing. I even remember Lanatas programs about this among other right wing television showmen talking of closing the borders.

Again, this is just hot air. You don't have any data. Also, how many Paraguayans do you actually know?

From your posts about how derrogatory racist terms aren't racist to your implicitly racist idea that "poor Paraguayans" can't live without coming to Argentina, your posts reveal your true colors.

Also, the issue being discussed is not that NO Paraguayans come to Argentina. As would be logical for two countries that share a border, there is a lot of movement back and forth.

 

[Matiasba]

Again, this is just hot air. You don't have any data. Also, how many Paraguayans do you actually know?

From your posts about how derrogatory racist terms aren't racist to your implicitly racist idea that "poor Paraguayans" can't live without coming to Argentina, your posts reveal your true colors.

Also, the issue being discussed is not that NO Paraguayans come to Argentina. As would be logical for two countries that share a border, there is a lot of movement back and forth.

back and forth? I bet you there are a lot more paraguayans in argentina than argentines in paraguay, and that the majority off them are sons of a paraguayan immigrant. I studied immigration and the Paraguayan immigration to Argentina began in the 60s, since then it continued growing, and all this time Argentina had better quality of life than Paraguayan, we have better social indicators, we have more opportunities, etc. Facts.


About racist terms, I cant believe this forum. You guys DO NOT UNDERSTAND argentine culture and argentine terminology. If it sound racist, its because you re thinking it from YOUR CULTURAL POV. You have to abbandon thinking argentine culture from a gringo point of view and start getting immersed in argentine culture. Understand the culture means dispossess your language, among other things. Negro here is not negro there.

The fact is that there is an Argentine person saying which terms are offensive and which are not. Not all of them are offensive, and that can be endearment. Negro, Chino, Franchute, paragua, yorugua, are not offensive. How do I know that? for many reasons, the main one THAT THERE IS NO INTENTION. To be racist the term must have an intention or a meaning of superiority and in these cases it dont. Chilote is offensive, bolita, brazuca, those are offensive and YES, negro can also be offensive.

 

[camberiu]

The fact is that there is an Argentine person saying which terms are offensive and which are not. Not all of them are offensive, and that can be endearment. Negro, Chino, Franchute, paragua, yorugua, are not offensive. How do I know that? for many reasons, the main one THAT THERE IS NO INTENTION. To be racist the term must have an intention or a meaning of superiority and in these cases it dont. Chilote is offensive, bolita, brazuca, those are offensive and YES, negro can also be offensive.

Calling a black person "boy" is not meant to be offensive. It is simply a term of endearment to communicate social standing.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Calling a black person "boy" is not meant to be offensive. It is simply a term of endearment to communicate social standing.

And when Brits speak of "Argies," it's a term of affection for a people they've adored since 1806.

 

[ElQueso]

Racism? before you accuse, please show me where.
About the numbers, I will have to search them. But hey, go on, continue spreading your idea that paraguayans are no longer coming to live, work and send money back to Paraguay. Not only this year, but every year in the last years, every month, every second, immigration from Paraguay has been growing and growing and growing. I even remember Lanatas programs about this among other right wing television showmen talking of closing the borders.

I'm not sure that your attitudes toward Paraguayan immigration show racism per se, but certainly a misplaced belief in the superiority of Argentina and her economy, no matter what. In fact, you have many times pointed to some weak "indicators" as to how well the Argentine economy is doing, while arguing over whether a 1000% fall in comparison to Paraguay's guarani meant anything because even though their exchange rate is now roughly 300 - 1 instead of 3000 - 1 to the peso, which to you means your economy must be 300 times better than theirs, it seems. And again - the smallest Paraguayan coin is 100 guaranies and they consider their base currency to be 1000 guaranies, not a single guarani. Perhaps they should consider 1 guarani to be their base, but any way you look at it, the Peso has fallen 1000% against your poor neighbor to the north. Argue anything you want, but that is a bold-faced fact.

As Leslie says, show us some numbers on current immigration to Argentina from Paraguay. I did a quick search and the most recent numbers I could find were from 2010, from sources on the web (and admittedly in English). Over the ten years from the census in 2001 to 2010, the total Paraguayan population rose 225,000, or about 22,500 immigrants per year on average. That's not really all that much, it seems to me, in terms of Argentine population percentage of immigrants. I fact, it is about .06%, on average per year, of the total average population of Argentina during that time. And see the info on how much those small numbers helped out Argentina during those same years in the construction industry, and about .04% of the new immigrant population from Bolivia that actually helped out with the economic side of things.*

And also, how many Paraguayans do you know? I'm not talking about middle class or well-off Paraguayans who come here to visit or come for business, but rather the workers who are actually quite a foundation of Argentina's economy*. We would ask this because those of us who know the people who come here to find work are not coming in the numbers they used to come, and I know many who have returned or are planning to return. Our family used to help people come from Paraguay, get them set up with residency, help find them jobs and places to live, etc. That has pretty much stopped. We haven't helped anyone in over a year. Used to be at least 6-7 per year for 4 or 5 years previously. I was just asking my wife and she knows at least ten of those who have returned to Paraguay in the last year.

I will admit that my opinions on this matter are based on anecdotal evidence I have accumulated from direct experience. I believe yours are from propaganda that many times is meant to be quite non-flattering to Paraguayans and other poor immigrants from South America.

* I found this article on Paraguayan (and other) immigration to Argentina from 2012: http://www.ipsnews.n...can-neighbours/

I particularly loved this part:

The study reports that 39 percent of the South American immigrants in the country are Paraguayans, whose number rose from 325,000 in the 2001 census to more than 550,000 in 2010. A majority of the Paraguayan men work in the construction industry, while the women are largely employed as domestics.

“Everyone who comes from Paraguay today is working,” Méndez said. “The Argentines are disgusted by dirt and shovels. And if it rains and a truck full of bags of cement needs to be emptied, like what happened to me today, they would go on strike for sure,” he adds ironically.

The IOM study reports that between 2003 and 2010, productivity in the construction industry in Argentina grew 14 percent a year.

The article also states that most of the immigrants from poor countries came in the 90's when the peso was pegged to the dollar and it made it ripe for immigrants to come in and send the money home in dollars to their families in their home countries. Funny enough, now that there is so much inflation and difficult and expensive to convert pesos to dollars, I know many people who have returned home because it's just not worth it to stay here. and before you say that the Paraguayans were taking all of that money out of the Argentine economy and thereby doing damage - I would be willing to place a very large bet that the percentage of net profit they took out didn't come close to the money made and which remained in the Argentine economy by increasing efficiency in their primary industry by 14%. Compare that with the quote from Méndez above about the attitudes of Argentinos and their aversion to hard work.

Another part of the article mentions that Bolivians are the second most numerous group of immigrants. More research shows that many of the migrant workers who help plant and harvest the crops that Argentina used to pull itself out of it's 2001-2002 crash were Bolivians working the fields.

Indeed, it seems to me that foreign labor, at low wages and difficult and dangerous conditions, are more responsible for any recovery than the Kirchners have been, and now, from my point of view, Cristina and her government are "thinning out the herd", even be it not on purpose.

I'm not accusing you, personally, of saying that Paraguayan immigration is bad for Argentina (I don't remember you stating that, anyway) or that you are racist, although I do get mixed feelings when I read your posts about this subject, as if you are trying to tow the "igualdad para todos y todas" line, but having problems really believing it. I give you the benefit of the doubt on this since you are not writing in your native language.

But tell me something Matias. I've been fairly-well immersed in Argentine culture for almost 9 years now (September is my anniversary). How is it that I see real racism (or at the very least, elitism) continuously over that time? How is it, for example, that all three of my girls, in three different schools, have come home crying (my youngest just two days ago - and each of them more than once) because they were called "Paraguaya de mierda" or "Paraguaya sucia" or "todos saben que las Paraguayas son re putas"? How is it that it affects my wife, her sisters and brothers, on a fairly frequent basis? I agree with you that some terms people use here are not considered racist here, I support that statement 100%. Unfortunately these other, truly hurtful, words and attitudes come from somewhere, and I'm guessing primarily their parents and secondarily what they hear from other classmates and friends.

What I can't support is your general statement (as I understand it) that everything that is said to Paraguayans or other immigrants (or even the majority of what's said) is not racist. And indeed, as I've told my girls many times when they promise me that they will improve their school grades, or communicate better with us when they go out, etc: "actions speak louder than words."

Meanwhile, the majority of poor immigrants who have helped Argentina recover from a devastating economic condition brought on by Argentina's own policies and inability to get things even going in the right direction and sustain it are still poor and treated like crap here no matter how hard they work, while people like bus drivers make more than doctors because they belong to a strong trade union (and I wonder how many immigrants have those jobs - connections, connections, connections). And the poor can't find decent places to live. Laws that are supposed to protect the poor do the exact opposite. Paraguayans and other poor immigrants are not treated well, very often. I have personal experience in seeing this, to a level I doubt very much you have seen.