July 10Th Pope Visits Paraguay

back and forth? I bet you there are a lot more paraguayans in argentina than argentines in paraguay, and that the majority off them are sons of a paraguayan immigrant. I studied immigration and the Paraguayan immigration to Argentina began in the 60s, since then it continued growing, and all this time Argentina had better quality of life than Paraguayan, we have better social indicators, we have more opportunities, etc. Facts.


About racist terms, I cant believe this forum. You guys DO NOT UNDERSTAND argentine culture and argentine terminology. If it sound racist, its because you re thinking it from YOUR CULTURAL POV. You have to abbandon thinking argentine culture from a gringo point of view and start getting immersed in argentine culture. Understand the culture means dispossess your language, among other things. Negro here is not negro there.

The fact is that there is an Argentine person saying which terms are offensive and which are not. Not all of them are offensive, and that can be endearment. Negro, Chino, Franchute, paragua, yorugua, are not offensive. How do I know that? for many reasons, the main one THAT THERE IS NO INTENTION. To be racist the term must have an intention or a meaning of superiority and in these cases it dont. Chilote is offensive, bolita, brazuca, those are offensive and YES, negro can also be offensive.

Yes, historically there has been immigration from Paraguay to Argentina, primarily to economic reasons. And due to that immigration there are generations of Paraguayan-Argentinians, many of whom along with their family, continue to have ties to Paraguay. My Guarani professor, for example, whose native tongue is Guarani, is from Quilmes. A very similar phenomenon happens in immigration patterns between the US and Mexico.

That immigration exists is not what is being discussed. The issue is that that immigration is slowing and many people who have immigrated are returning. This is not rocket science, but basic economics. As inflation, among other things, continues to plague the Argentine economy, it is no longer advantageous for most Paraguayans to work in Argentina. Of course, the Argentine economy is still larger than the Paraguayan economy, and thus some opportunities exist here that don't there. But in general immigration based on economic necessity is not occurring as much as in the past. The reasons why are presented for you in detail in other posts in this thread.

 
Also, regarding your comment about not understanding Argentine culture and the use of derogatory terms as humor: it's not that I (we) don't understand Argentine culture. It's that YOU refuse to recognize that just because "white argentine culture"(and that's really what you mean) find it to be funny, immigrant and non-white populations do not.

Also, I think your use of "Argentine culture" is a poor excuse. Most Argentines I know (who tend to be white, UBA-educated, lower middle class) do not use terms like negro, etc. as jokes.
 
But tell me something Matias. I've been fairly-well immersed in Argentine culture for almost 9 years now (September is my anniversary). How is it that I see real racism (or at the very least, elitism) continuously over that time? How is it, for example, that all three of my girls, in three different schools, have come home crying (my youngest just two days ago - and each of them more than once) because they were called "Paraguaya de mierda" or "Paraguaya sucia" or "todos saben que las Paraguayas son re putas"? How is it that it affects my wife, her sisters and brothers, on a fairly frequent basis? I agree with you that some terms people use here are not considered racist here, I support that statement 100%. Unfortunately these other, truly hurtful, words and attitudes come from somewhere, and I'm guessing primarily their parents and secondarily what they hear from other classmates and friends.

Dude, this is rough. When I dressed down and walked on streets, some folks assumed I was Paraguayan or Peruvian, and insulted me. I am a 40 year old guy, with an advanced degree and earning US dollars, so those insults are little more than amusing to me. But I can only imagine what your kids must be going through.

Have you ever considered moving them to a more "healthy" place?

When going to school as a small kid in Brazil, I did have classmates from Uruguay, Paraguay and Colombia. Yes, kids would make fun of their broken and accented Portuguese, or the weird arrepas one would bring from home as his school lunch (arrepas were very weird to us) but we did not have names for them. We would never call then paraguas or damned Colombian or anything like that. They were just from a neighboring country, and we certainly had no sense of superiority over them. If anything, they were cooler because they were international. Brazil was so messed up back then any sense of superiority towards a neighbor was just unimaginable.

Maybe your kids should be in a more "normal" environment?
 
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Queso's dirt and shovels quote reminded me of this video I ran across earlier in the week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuxsuzdHNLo&feature=youtu.be
 
I'm not sure that your attitudes toward Paraguayan immigration show racism per se, but certainly a misplaced belief in the superiority of Argentina and her economy, no matter what. In fact, you have many times pointed to some weak "indicators" as to how well the Argentine economy is doing, while arguing over whether a 1000% fall in comparison to Paraguay's guarani meant anything because even though their exchange rate is now roughly 300 - 1 instead of 3000 - 1 to the peso, which to you means your economy must be 300 times better than theirs, it seems. And again - the smallest Paraguayan coin is 100 guaranies and they consider their base currency to be 1000 guaranies, not a single guarani. Perhaps they should consider 1 guarani to be their base, but any way you look at it, the Peso has fallen 1000% against your poor neighbor to the north. Argue anything you want, but that is a bold-faced fact.

As Leslie says, show us some numbers on current immigration to Argentina from Paraguay. I did a quick search and the most recent numbers I could find were from 2010, from sources on the web (and admittedly in English). Over the ten years from the census in 2001 to 2010, the total Paraguayan population rose 225,000, or about 22,500 immigrants per year on average. That's not really all that much, it seems to me, in terms of Argentine population percentage of immigrants. I fact, it is about .06%, on average per year, of the total average population of Argentina during that time. And see the info on how much those small numbers helped out Argentina during those same years in the construction industry, and about .04% of the new immigrant population from Bolivia that actually helped out with the economic side of things.*

And also, how many Paraguayans do you know? I'm not talking about middle class or well-off Paraguayans who come here to visit or come for business, but rather the workers who are actually quite a foundation of Argentina's economy*. We would ask this because those of us who know the people who come here to find work are not coming in the numbers they used to come, and I know many who have returned or are planning to return. Our family used to help people come from Paraguay, get them set up with residency, help find them jobs and places to live, etc. That has pretty much stopped. We haven't helped anyone in over a year. Used to be at least 6-7 per year for 4 or 5 years previously. I was just asking my wife and she knows at least ten of those who have returned to Paraguay in the last year.

I will admit that my opinions on this matter are based on anecdotal evidence I have accumulated from direct experience. I believe yours are from propaganda that many times is meant to be quite non-flattering to Paraguayans and other poor immigrants from South America.

* I found this article on Paraguayan (and other) immigration to Argentina from 2012: http://www.ipsnews.n...can-neighbours/

I particularly loved this part:



The article also states that most of the immigrants from poor countries came in the 90's when the peso was pegged to the dollar and it made it ripe for immigrants to come in and send the money home in dollars to their families in their home countries. Funny enough, now that there is so much inflation and difficult and expensive to convert pesos to dollars, I know many people who have returned home because it's just not worth it to stay here. and before you say that the Paraguayans were taking all of that money out of the Argentine economy and thereby doing damage - I would be willing to place a very large bet that the percentage of net profit they took out didn't come close to the money made and which remained in the Argentine economy by increasing efficiency in their primary industry by 14%. Compare that with the quote from Méndez above about the attitudes of Argentinos and their aversion to hard work.

Another part of the article mentions that Bolivians are the second most numerous group of immigrants. More research shows that many of the migrant workers who help plant and harvest the crops that Argentina used to pull itself out of it's 2001-2002 crash were Bolivians working the fields.

Indeed, it seems to me that foreign labor, at low wages and difficult and dangerous conditions, are more responsible for any recovery than the Kirchners have been, and now, from my point of view, Cristina and her government are "thinning out the herd", even be it not on purpose.

I'm not accusing you, personally, of saying that Paraguayan immigration is bad for Argentina (I don't remember you stating that, anyway) or that you are racist, although I do get mixed feelings when I read your posts about this subject, as if you are trying to tow the "igualdad para todos y todas" line, but having problems really believing it. I give you the benefit of the doubt on this since you are not writing in your native language.

But tell me something Matias. I've been fairly-well immersed in Argentine culture for almost 9 years now (September is my anniversary). How is it that I see real racism (or at the very least, elitism) continuously over that time? How is it, for example, that all three of my girls, in three different schools, have come home crying (my youngest just two days ago - and each of them more than once) because they were called "Paraguaya de mierda" or "Paraguaya sucia" or "todos saben que las Paraguayas son re putas"? How is it that it affects my wife, her sisters and brothers, on a fairly frequent basis? I agree with you that some terms people use here are not considered racist here, I support that statement 100%. Unfortunately these other, truly hurtful, words and attitudes come from somewhere, and I'm guessing primarily their parents and secondarily what they hear from other classmates and friends.

What I can't support is your general statement (as I understand it) that everything that is said to Paraguayans or other immigrants (or even the majority of what's said) is not racist. And indeed, as I've told my girls many times when they promise me that they will improve their school grades, or communicate better with us when they go out, etc: "actions speak louder than words."

Meanwhile, the majority of poor immigrants who have helped Argentina recover from a devastating economic condition brought on by Argentina's own policies and inability to get things even going in the right direction and sustain it are still poor and treated like crap here no matter how hard they work, while people like bus drivers make more than doctors because they belong to a strong trade union (and I wonder how many immigrants have those jobs - connections, connections, connections). And the poor can't find decent places to live. Laws that are supposed to protect the poor do the exact opposite. Paraguayans and other poor immigrants are not treated well, very often. I have personal experience in seeing this, to a level I doubt very much you have seen.

El queso, I know a lot of paraguayans, all of them workers, all of them who came in the last past ten years and all of them talked me of how good is here compaqred to Paraguay. More than ten. For example, one of them twenty something, construction worker, here he has a car, a house and could have a family to mantain. He is indeed a hard worker, but he told me he could do all these because of Argentina. Then there is, close to where I live (I currently live in Mexico, but my argie home) a new villa, all of them paraguayans, recently arrived. And I talked to several people who explained me how it works: there is an extreme easy access to Argentina from Paraguay, no border controls, etc, and they come to Buenos Aires. And all this extreme poor country people from Paraguay then become a problem to Argentine State. What they do? they divide the number of paraguayans and distribute them within the Conurbano. So if there were 10 partidos in the Conurbano, each one would get 10% of paraguayan immigrants. And where do they live? in a new villa. The argentine state can not absorb this habitational problem, can not build homes para todos y todas, that would be an enormous spend, so they live and settle new villas, which have grown enormously in the last years and which have more than 70% of its population foreigners. The new villa close to where I live, is from 2013 and are all paraguayans.

BTW the original term of villa, is "villa miseria" or "villa de emergencia" which means, it is not permanent, it is an emergency, and they are there not forever. In fact it started with this idea in the 40s and now it has grown the problem till todays dimensions. But you wont find a villero who is living in a villa for a long time. Those famiies end up succeeding, leaving the villa and living in a house (except that the villa is extremely well located or they have a particular beneffit). Most of the villa population are "recien llegados" cause the ones that came before are now living in better conditions.

About racism against paraguayans, I repeated several times that yes, argentina is VERY racist to paraguayans (and bolivians, and peruvians). Very very very much, especially in the lower classes. Thats how distinction works, sadly. Poor argentines think that are better than poor paraguayans. Argentina is very racist, but also very generous and very solidary, and very open to recieve immigration, as history shows.

What I meant is that there are some terms that here on this board were catalogued as racists and they are not. All in all, I dont think as Argentine society as racist, I dont think it is more problematic than in any country which recieved loads of immigration. For example, calling 'chinos' to all asians, or 'turcos' to all who come from middle east, or 'gallegos' to all spaniards, that is not racism, its ignorance, mixed with endearment, cause we call chino to everyone who has almond shape eyes even if he is not asian descendant. Its ignorance mixed with endearment. Although I must say there is A LOT more endearment with the immigration from Spain and Italy, and Turkey, etc than from border countries.
 
If are born South of the Rio Grande, no matter how far South, you are a Mexican in their eyes.

And I am OK with being Mexican. One can be mistaken for much worse.

Well, at least you won't be mistaken for a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker_(pejorative)
 
Weird. You live in México but talk like a Gringo (and I mean gringo in the Mexican sense of the word).
 
I dont understand, like a gringo? how do the gringos talk in mexico?

The things you said in your last post sound exactly like the anti-immigrant, anti-Mexcian rhetoric being spewed in the US right now.

Ask any of your Mexican friends what a "pinche gringo" is. I'll give you a hint: it's definitely not a term of endearment.
 
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