Lanata No Mas?!

[ajoknoblauch]

Wake up! You fail to see you are not living in a democracy, more like a democrazy. It is in reality a dictatorship that used to be supported by 54%.... not anymore.

Argentina's current government may be arbitrary and authoritarian, but it is not a dictatorship. There are only a handful of true dictatorships left, most notably North Korea.

 

[ARbound]

I never ever read anywhere of any government in any country that blamed the country´s problems and miseries on a news/media group. With this being the K´s biggest cause, everything is said and done. I have nothing else to add to this ridiculous media law. As if that was one of the country´s main issues!

And the U.S. Embassy. We Americans just love to fuck Argentina six ways to Sunday.

In all seriousness everyone has made good points. Is the United States what it used to be? No, but Northern East and West Coast States are generally better than Argentina in many sections of human development, crime, nepotism, poverty, quality of life, etc. As for the former confederacy, bible belt, and flyover states, yes they're corrupt and backwards and can be worse than Argentina. At least there is socialized medicine here.

Now bajo, I don't mean this a completely as ad-hominem as this will sound but please take your head out of Cristina's Campora, FpV, Pagina/12 coated ass and see the world for the way it really is: Argentina is not a developed country. *However* Argentina is also not a third world country. There are things that happen here that everyone has outlined before my arrival to this thread and form that would send most people across the developed world in to a spin at the idea of it even being possible, let alone actually happening.

- Campora leaders running Aerolineas is Nepotism
- INDEC lying (you can't denny this or you are too past saving) to save the government face is a crime
- Things being better now then they were during the Process is like us saying "Things are better now then they were during the civil war!" It's true but
for so many different reasons and I wouldn't credit Obama or Bush or FDR (my favorite President) for them just like you and others shouldn't credit Cristina
- There being 3+ exchange rates for dollars is a sign of country with structural financial problems to the core where the populace doesn't even believe in the money they're paid with. This is found in countries like Venezuela, Cuba, Burma, etc. This started happening in 2011 remember.
- Like others said, if the biggest problem facing Argentina is that annoying prick Jorge Lanata sweating under a set light bitching about Cristina then I have to say this country is a lot worse than I thought originally, especially if that's what you guys are happy with them spending their energy and your taxes on.

 

[John.St]

... Also, you can't have cable and air TV on the same city.

Which is exactly what exposes the media law as a Kirchnerist attack on political enemies. Cable TV does not take up a frequency, only "air TV" does.

 

[John.St]

The media law follows international human right standars for protecting media against censorship.

No, it does not. If the media law were to protect the people, it would also limit the number of channels a government may bribe using official advertisements. There is no limits to Kirchnerist coimas.

Who used to own the only paper factory in argentina?
You know that to restrict the access to paper is the strongest tool against freedom of press right?

Who owns it now?

 

[John.St]

about the buying votes or clientelismo.... it happens, you know? its something totally mundane, common, its an exchange of favours, thats how the world works, you give me this and I give you that, it happens with governmenst and corporations, why would not happen between persons? its naive to think that people vote because of their values, morally or whatever, they vote according if they are in a good or bad position economically.

Do you have any suggestions why Argentina is no. 102 in the Corruption Perceptions Index (where 1 is best)? http://cpi.transpare...pi2012/results/

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Bajo cero, sadly you are right about many things you say about the US becoming a police state, fake democracy and all that. Again it's sad but you're right. It's one of the reasons I dislike Obama so much. He fools people into believing he's a savior when he's just another Bush with a different t shirt. That being said, the fact that our situation back home sucks doesn't mean you have to be so passionate about defending the K people. Sure they might not be 100% bad, but they also lie a lot and they did the whole vote buying thing apparently. You need to try to be objective. This isn't we're good they're bad. This isn't a Argentina vs US in the world cup. This is a situation in which we BOTH have governments that are not what they claim to be and the bottom line is that both Argentina and the US deserve better governments.

Internationalguy, I don´t defend the K people, I just clarify what is true and what is a lie.
Somebody asserted the media law was enforced only to Clarin and I showed that it wasn´t like tha, there are 29 companies under the media law and Clarin is the only rebel. Somebody else with somekind of moral superiority said than in a real democracy blablabla and I evidence that the democracy he/she was refering is not better than this one, in fact, a lot worst. It was said too, that this law wasn´t needed because children was dying like cockroaches because of this government. I evidenced that he/she was wrong because child mortality fall 27%.

There are many things to critize to this government without to lie.

Freedom of press is a topic I know from first hand.
I worked on a leading case some years ago that we won at Supreme Court where the government of a province suddenly took away all the official advertizing as a punishment for an article of a newspaper. Supreme Court said that to manipulate the official advertizing as the carrot and the stick violates the freedom of press.

http://www.adc.org.ar/sw_contenido.php?id=530

So, I have some idea about freedom of press.

There are 3 different issues with the freedom of press. 1) to use the official advertizing to punish or reward newspapers 2) the monopolie of paper press 3) the monopoly of the media.

In 1) is the goverment who abuse of power using the official advertizing as a reward for media addicted or as a punishment to free press (no giving official advertizing). Here is where serious criticism should be focus.

The SC also decided in favor of a newspaper in the following leading case "Editorial Perfil":
http://www.perfil.com/docs/0302_fallo_corte_perfil.pdf
Here is the government who jeopardizes the freedom of press and the SC put a limit.
I read recentrly that SC is going to decide again against the government in another case on this subject.

2) Clarin and La Nacion had the monopoly of press paper. They dictators kiddnaped the familly of the former owner of the factory to force him to sell the company.
a) During the dictatorship Clarin was brived with the factory of paper and they censorship other newspapers just don´t selling the paper.
B) During democracy, Clarin used to sell the paper to himself under the cost. This illegal maneuver sent to buncrupsy most of the others newspapers. Now it is administrated by the State. The other newspapers had to pay the paper 58% more expensive than Clarin.
Here is Clarin who jeopardizes the freedom of press and the government put a limit.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papel_Prensa_S._A.

3) The third issue is the monopoly of the media.
The American Convention on Human Rights is part of the Argentine National Constitution. Article 13 says:

3. The right of exp<b></b>ression may not be restricted by indirect methods or means, such as the abuse of government or private controls over newsprint, radio broadcasting frequencies, or equipment used in the dissemination of information, or by any other means tending to impede the communication and circulation of ideas and opinions.​

http://www.oas.org/dil/treaties_B-32_American_Convention_on_Human_Rights.htm

The Clarin Group lost the case because of art. 13.

Facts.

 

[EdRooney]

Standing ovation Bajo!

This is a great example of standing up for a principle (freedom of the press) instead of standing up for a political party (Ks). Please note how he is clearly applauding where the Ks were defeated on this issue, but he also supports the Media Law. In other words, his support is not based on being pro-K or anti-K, but rather on moral grounds.

In politics here and elsewhere there are far too many people who first look at their leaders' stance on an issue and then decide what to think. Thus you have the Kirchners here swaying from Menemism to Leftism, or in the US the Democrats swaying from being civil libertarians under Bush to supporters of Obama's attacks on human rights.

Hats off to Bajo for standing on principle instead of party affiliation.

 

[Matiasba]

Just one thing Bajo Cero, for the ones that werent here during the menemismo.
When I read your links it pops to my mind the Supreme Court we used to have during the 90s, were totally dependent on Menem, put there by his desire, totally adicted to him, totally functional, they were like 5 members without no moral authority, they were friends of power. Totally corrupted.

It was the Kirchnerismo who changed the number of the members and constructed their morally superiority, accepting when the sentence is contrary to its interests. Today the supreme court is very independent of the political power, thats a HUGE change from the 90s.

 

[Rich One]

Every body against Matias ...!! You can argue until blue in the face with a K fundamentalist and never reach to a middle ground save your breath...! The Campora hired 45 people in a call center in San Juan to flood the media and social networks(web with Pro K arguments ... They are everywhere....???

 

[Matiasba]

Every body against Matias ...!! You can argue until blue in the face with a K fundamentalist and never reach to a middle ground save your breath...! The Campora hired 45 people in a call center in San Juan to flood the media and social networks(web with Pro K arguments ... They are everywhere....???

Rich One, once again, Im not a K fundamentalist, in more than ten years, with its elections I never ever voted for them. I simply find their main economic policies fine, and a lot of others too, the thing they did with the militars, gay marriage and gender identity, and fighting against the media (the first government who does this), a lot of things well done. For the first time in decades we re not getting people into poverty but the oposite, getting them out of it, and its not indec data, its hard data of UN, world bank, etc.

I never said this government wasnt corrupt, what I do say, is that corruption is not only a patrimony of this government, it is the country that is corrupted, from the empresarios to the carnicero, the inspecctor of Cromagnon, everywhere this country is corrupted. It is this government, but also the past and the following. It is Carrio, Macri, Binner, the Ks, everyone who is in politics, except some people, like some minority parties loyal to their ideas, I know, for instance, that Taiana is not corrupt, Filmus neither.

It is naive at least to suppose that corruption is only a patrimony of this people. The upper classes in this country, as I said before, are very corrupted, the sojeros, who try to evade taxes, the financiaal groups, like EXXEL, the K friends, who are A LOT more of people of what we think, from construction to Techint, highways, hospitals, airports, a lot of empresarios thaat negotiated with the Ks the last ten years.