Latin Americas move to the left Good ? OR Bad

[windy]

For people that really wish to follow the story go to this link and watch the video.
It shows the coup against Chavez from the other side.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18236.htm

 

[laureltp]

Oh, what I meant was that the media always seems bias on this topic. It's really hard to form an opinion on something when all you can find is bias in the media. I suppose a first hand experience would really make a difference. Of course within the country you are going to get a lot of bias and a lot of opinions but maybe if you are actually there maybe you can see things more clearly.

Just a guess of course. For example, before I really knew so much about life in Argentina I heard about the corruption but I didn't really know how it was until I lived it. I have read a lot into Venezuela's history, and while the history makes the present more understandable I don't think it's going to help us decide whether Chavez is corrupt or not.

But I do agree with you that the problem in the US is about class, only that we always talk about the black people and it seems like they talk about the poor people, same thing only with a little different shift in focus.

I can't believe I almost missed this thread. This is hilarious stuff.



I lived in Barcelona for a few years and I have met quite a few of these Venezuelan anti-Chavez people. I think they are one, if not the most, hateful group that I have ever encountered. Most of them would insert anti-Chavez joke, or just spontaneously mentioning him, and they would do it in pretty much any context.
And the Venezuelans that you meet in Europe or the States are middle class. For decades they have enjoyed the status quo in Venezuela so it's only natural that they react with fear when the poor Venezuelan people start voting socialist. Which is why these people don't want to discuss why he came to power or why he keeps winning every election; they don't want to admit this is a class issue and that they are not interested in any wealth distribution. That's why you'll hear them resorting to name calling or outright lies.



And you completely ignore what totalitarian changes that are going on in your country gouchobob. Why so critical of Venezuela? Shouldn't you be more focused on defending the freedoms that are being taken away from you in your own country?

And by labeling him as totalitarian, you conveniently ignore the following facts from the article:

"Forget his success in slashing the Venezuelan poverty rate in half, tripling social spending, rapidly expanding healthcare and education, and fostering grassroots democracy and worker participation."

and

"In reality the Venezuelan president has won more free elections than any other world leader, the country's media are dominated by the US-funded opposition, and his government's problems with service delivery stem more from institutional weakness than authoritarianism."

So what makes him so totalitarian gouchobob?




I disagree. You go to Venezuela and hang out with middle class people and you will think Chavez is a crazy dictator. Go to the favelas and you will probably think he truly represent change for the Venezuelan people.
And just going there isn't going to change much. What you need to do is read about the history of Venezuela.



The problem in the states is not due to race, it's due to class as well. I think the only difference is that whites are a minority in Venezuela. Some middle class people are dark though. And generally, if they can afford to travel and live in the U.S or Europe, they are middle class and most likely anti-Chavez.

 

[gouchobob]

Oh, what I meant was that the media always seems bias on this topic. It's really hard to form an opinion on something when all you can find is bias in the media. I suppose a first hand experience would really make a difference. Of course within the country you are going to get a lot of bias and a lot of opinions but maybe if you are actually there maybe you can see things more clearly.

Just a guess of course. For example, before I really knew so much about life in Argentina I heard about the corruption but I didn't really know how it was until I lived it. I have read a lot into Venezuela's history, and while the history makes the present more understandable I don't think it's going to help us decide whether Chavez is corrupt or not.

But I do agree with you that the problem in the US is about class, only that we always talk about the black people and it seems like they talk about the poor people, same thing only with a little different shift in focus.

What bias are you referring to? The opinion on Chavez is almost unanimous that he has Venezuela on the path to a totalitarian police state. A few try to justify this by saying the poor are better off. I guess by that measure Hitler was OK as well as he eliminated most poverty and unemployment in Germany by putting people to work building weapons. Of course in the end this didn't work out to well for Germany. I think the same thing will happen to Hugo. The Venezuelan economy currently is imploding and the country has the highest inflation rate in the world. When they are finally rid of him the country will be much worse off in every department including more poor people than ever before. Too bad all the oil money there hasn't been used to build a better future for all Venezuelans.

 

[Lucas]

Gouchobob....

Everything You Wanted To Know About Chavez, Venezuela and USA But Were Afraid To Ask...

Watch it first and if you don't agree then comment why.

 

[orwellian]

What bias are you referring to? The opinion on Chavez is almost unanimous that he has Venezuela on the path to a totalitarian police state.

Oh yeah? Because the overwhelming majority in Venezuela keeps voting for him. What unanimous group of people are you referring to?
In fact, during the Chavez administration there has never been more referendums in Venezuela. But maybe that is very totalitarian in your opinion. Do you care to tell how why you think Venezuela is "on a path to a totalitarian police state"?

I guess by that measure Hitler was OK as well as he eliminated most poverty and unemployment in Germany by putting people to work building weapons. Of course in the end this didn't work out to well for Germany.

Yes Hitler and the Nazi party were successful with eliminating unemployment and poverty in Germany. And it didn't work out very well for them. But that was only because of the war. What they did accomplish under peacetime is just an example how well plan economy can work. Although it's not a fair comparison though since Hitler and the Nazis did not have a right wing opposition like the one Chavez struggles with today.

When they are finally rid of him the country will be much worse off in every department including more poor people than ever before. Too bad all the oil money there hasn't been used to build a better future for all Venezuelans.

Wrong again. Check out this accomplishments of the Chavez government below. Surely they could have done better if they hadn't experienced such violent opposition. But you must admit that what they have been able to pull off during the circumstances is pretty good.
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf

 

[gouchobob]

Gouchobob....

Everything You Wanted To Know About Chavez, Venezuela and USA But Were Afraid To Ask...

Watch it first and if you don't agree then comment why.

I didn't watch the video nor do I intend to. The maker is John Pilger another far-left character. I don't find him very credible as a journalist or as a film maker because of his extreme left wing views. You can read more on Pilger and some of his views below.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1763

 

[gouchobob]

Oh yeah? Because the overwhelming majority in Venezuela keeps voting for him. What unanimous group of people are you referring to?
In fact, during the Chavez administration there has never been more referendums in Venezuela. But maybe that is very totalitarian in your opinion. Do you care to tell how why you think Venezuela is "on a path to a totalitarian police state"?



Yes Hitler and the Nazi party were successful with eliminating unemployment and poverty in Germany. And it didn't work out very well for them. But that was only because of the war. What they did accomplish under peacetime is just an example how well plan economy can work. Although it's not a fair comparison though since Hitler and the Nazis did not have a right wing opposition like the one Chavez struggles with today.



Wrong again. Check out this accomplishments of the Chavez government below. Surely they could have done better if they hadn't experienced such violent opposition. But you must admit that what they have been able to pull off during the circumstances is pretty good.
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf

My point with Hugo is that none of his help for the poor will be sustainable in the long run. The economy is falling apart under his incompetent leadership. If there wasn't all that oil money he would already be gone. I could organize poor people tomorrow to rob banks. Their economic condition would immediately improve. Would you hail me as some sort of a savior of the poor as a result?
You would probably tell me that this cannot work over the long-term.

By the way the CEPR link you gave is for a well known far left-wing organization and supporter of Hugo and other similar regimes. Not very credible in my opinion.

 

[Lucas]

I didn't watch the video nor do I intend to. The maker is John Pilger another far-left character. I don't find him very credible as a journalist or as a film maker because of his extreme left wing views. You can read more on Pilger and some of his views below.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1763

gouchobob that's a very poor judgment from you, how do you can give an opinion on something you totally ignore?

At least try to see the documentary don't dismiss it as garbage, make the effort to watch it without prejudices and then I will, everybody will take in considerations your different point of view.

 

[gouchobob]

gouchobob that's a very poor judgment from you, how do you can give an opinion on something you totally ignore?

At least try to see the documentary don't dismiss it as garbage, make the effort to watch it without prejudices and then I will, everybody will take in considerations your different point of view.

I've seen enough of the mans work and words to know what it will say before I watch it, his views are very biased. I don't need to read Mien Kampf to know I'm not going to appreciate Hitler's views. There were lot's of people giving Adolf glowing reviews back in the 30's. These people became completely discredited for the rest of their lives once the truth became known, I suspect the Hugo supporters will have the same fate.

 

[orwellian]

I didn't watch the video nor do I intend to. The maker is John Pilger another far-left character. I don't find him very credible as a journalist or as a film maker because of his extreme left wing views. You can read more on Pilger and some of his views below.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1763

Extreme left wing views? Did you read the article you just posted? Extreme views is in your opinion criticizing the U.S and Israel? And besides, why attack the messenger? Should you not focus on the actual content in the documentary?
It's pretty obvious to all here why you don't wanna watch it. Making up excuses like this is just embarrassing.